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To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?

1000 replies

Locutus2000 · 08/07/2025 11:58

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises.

BMA have just announced another 'resident' doctor strike continuing to chase pay restoration to 2008 levels.

Having just had the major win with changes to IMG prioritisation and the clamp-down on PAs it feels a bit tone-deaf and I can't see Streeting going for it.

Resident doctors in England vote to strike over pay

Vote comes after BMA criticised ‘woefully inadequate’ 5.4% award for medics formally known as junior doctors

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/jul/08/resident-doctors-in-england-vote-to-strike-over-pay

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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mumsneedwine · 13/07/2025 14:16

It doesn’t have to be about money. If conditions were improved, and student loan forgiveness introduced, it would cost nothing, and might even save money. GMC costs funded, exams funded, some say in where you live etc would all v likely mean no strikes. GMC seems a scam to me - they give their own staff private medical cover so must be making a massive surplus ! And why it costs £600 to run a on line, self marked exam I do not know. A levels cost £35 a paper and are hand marked. Seems money is wasted in so many ways.

mumsneedwine · 13/07/2025 14:24

I know it’s just on social media but for anyone interested why Drs are cross

https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorsUK/comments/1lfi8o5/pas_snd_anps_in_theatre_but_not_junior_doctors/?chainedPosts=t3_1lfai8z

poetryandwine · 13/07/2025 14:50

A focus on the systemic flaws - the bottlenecks, very short term placements, lack of necessary opportunity within placements - would IMO generate a fair amount of fellow feeling amongst the public. We all want our doctors to be well trained and I daresay that most of us don’t think it is racist to prioritise those educated in the UK, with our money and according to our values, for placements.

Someone should try putting this across to Dr Melissa Ryan.

justasking111 · 13/07/2025 15:23

Our health board bragged they had hired 90 overseas nurses. Problem was finding accommodation for them. So they stuck them in a drug den area where accommodation was easy to find. I had an appointment with an eye consultant on a three year placement from Sri Lanka who had been put in the worst area in the worst town in the county. I was horrified and told him so.

Is this what my health board has sunk to.

mumsneedwine · 13/07/2025 15:40

@poetryandwine I so do agree. I think the BMA should focus in conditions not pay, but you’re legally not allowed to strike about those any more.

Everyone wants the NHS to work well and for the staff to be happy and stay. It really shouldn’t be this hard.

BIossomtoes · 13/07/2025 15:42

mumsneedwine · 13/07/2025 14:10

@ThePure PAs are now doing surgery. AAs are anaesthetising patients with a consultant ‘somewhere in the hospital’. In Derriford the Resident doctors were told they had to sign any prescription a PA asked for, without seeing the patient themselves. This was an email so documented. PAs are getting clinical time over doctors, cutting their training. There is money for PAs but not doctors ? We are about to have a slew of unemployed F2s, competent doctors who can do so much, but the NHS continues to recruit more expensive PAs. Who I feel sorry for as they’ve been sold a dummy.

After tax, pension and student loans an F1 takes home approximately £1,200 a month. In 2008 they took home £1,200 a month, same cash, slightly different world. Saying one day they’ll earn more does not pay their rent today, landlords don’t take promises of future income.

According to a salary calculator the F1 take home is £2,382.05

mumsneedwine · 13/07/2025 15:47

@BIossomtoes 😂😂 apologies, should have been £2,200 for both. Slip of finger - even I don’t think they earn £14,000 post tax.

here is their take home if anyone interested. This is for 40 hours a week so a net hourly pay of £12.74.

To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?
mumsneedwine · 13/07/2025 15:51

Difference between now and 2008. Tax thresholds, student loan, pension contributions, extra NI deductions. And pay had not kept up with these inflationary deductions.

BIossomtoes · 13/07/2025 16:05

mumsneedwine · 13/07/2025 15:51

Difference between now and 2008. Tax thresholds, student loan, pension contributions, extra NI deductions. And pay had not kept up with these inflationary deductions.

Nor has anyone else’s.

poetryandwine · 13/07/2025 16:10

mumsneedwine · 13/07/2025 15:40

@poetryandwine I so do agree. I think the BMA should focus in conditions not pay, but you’re legally not allowed to strike about those any more.

Everyone wants the NHS to work well and for the staff to be happy and stay. It really shouldn’t be this hard.

I’ve just done a search. A few trade union sites say that ‘conditions of employment’ are a valid issue for strike action. What’s your source for saying otherwise?

mumsneedwine · 13/07/2025 18:25

@poetryandwine the laws brought in by the last government meant you can only now strike for pay and a v v limited set of conditions, mainly around discrimination.

mumsneedwine · 13/07/2025 18:26

@BIossomtoes oh yes they have

To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?
poetryandwine · 13/07/2025 19:03

mumsneedwine · 13/07/2025 18:25

@poetryandwine the laws brought in by the last government meant you can only now strike for pay and a v v limited set of conditions, mainly around discrimination.

I would appreciate a reference to some detail on this, because I am not finding it. I am seeing that a dispute over working conditions is a trade dispute and a valid reason for strike action.

BIossomtoes · 13/07/2025 19:17

mumsneedwine · 13/07/2025 18:26

@BIossomtoes oh yes they have

Sorry that diagram - wherever it came from tells me nothing.

poetryandwine · 13/07/2025 20:45

BIossomtoes · 13/07/2025 19:17

Sorry that diagram - wherever it came from tells me nothing.

Well that graph leaves out academics!

Needmoresleep · 13/07/2025 21:44

Pay increases won't sort out work conditions and the NHS' other problems.

I agree with Pure. The thing that upsets DD most is wait lists. Two years for an urgent referral for a major condition that can be helped with medication. Having to tell a patient who has lived for eight years with a major hernia surgery that they are still nowhere near the top of the list. She became a doctor to treat people.

Yes management in some departments is crap, but that is life. (I still sometimes google a former manager who could not manage her way out of a paper bag and caused me and others real unhappiness, to look for evidence of karma which is weird, but we have to find ways of dealing with difficult situations.) It is made up for by working with some very wonderful people and coming across some great patients. And, as up thread, the humility that comes for meeting people whose lives are really difficult.

I actually don't know how much DD earns, though it is less pay than F1/F2s in England. It is still very likely to be higher than the average wage in the area and means that she can afford a mortgage, to run a car, take holidays (OK the last one involved camping), see the bands she wants, play sports and so on. The rotations (five out of six) where there has been overtime she has been able to save the extra pay. All for a job she enjoys.

Worrying about PAs smacks of the politics of envy, which is like a toxin seeping through our society. First off PAs face an uncertain future. My own GP has stopped using them and apparently it is common for senior doctors to refuse to have them in their departments. DD worked with one who was far more limited on the procedures they were able to carry out. Yes the PA earned more, had training time built into her contract (something English F1/F2s get but not others in the UK) and was not required to work nights or weekends. But I can bet that overall the PA would love to be in the position of an F2 with a medical degree and an obvious career path, and if I were them I would be worried that they form a quick cost saving measure given they are more expensive at a time when F2s can't find work.

I am angry that DDs hard working peers have been expected to work more hours for less pay, don't get training time and are then expected to go through the same national selection processes for specialist training as English F1s, or affluent overseas medics who have been able to pay for support in achieving CV ad ons etc. English GPs often have quieter rotations like GP or community, giving them regular hours and a chance to study. (Some do where DD is, but not all.) Then irritatingly the posts earmarked as specialist training posts remain unfilled because those selected want to stay in England. Whilst at the same time the entry level jobs they need in order to have time to try again have been opened to full international competition.

English resident doctors faff on about PAs, or their poor pay. Time to grow up. Fight for things that really matter. Things that affect patient care or the future of the NHS. Perhaps they could start talking about their peers (and other HCPs) who can't find jobs because of our mad immigration system that chooses to import staff when our own qualified and competent medics have no jobs. Perhaps they could start talking about things that affect patient care like the management of wait lists. A constructive approach would win public respect. In these grim times fighting for a larger share of the public funding cake with loose them public trust and support.

MushMonster · 14/07/2025 08:35

mumsneedwine · 11/07/2025 18:34

@MushMonster you didn’t answer the question. Are you paid 30% less than you lower qualified assistant ?

Well, that is a very stupid statement.
Nobody is paid less than their "assistant". Someone may be paid less, even a 30% less, than someone else whose job needs more skills, involves more hours, has a more crucial job, their job involves tougher conditions.

I do not know where all these people with random numbers pulled out of magic hats come from. But... it does not work. It is laughable, actually....

mumsneedwine · 14/07/2025 09:24

Random ? Day 1 doctor vs day 1 Physician Assistant. So now you know people who are paid 30% less than their assistant.

To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?
mumsneedwine · 14/07/2025 09:25

And you’re right. It is laughable that this is allowed to happen.

mumsneedwine · 14/07/2025 09:28

It’s not envy, it’s comparative pay, a legal requirement in the UK. If you do the same job you should get the same pay (go Ford ladies).

I have no problem with PAs earning what they do, I just think doctors, who are more highly trained and do much more, should be paid more than them.

mumsneedwine · 14/07/2025 09:35

Patient care is fighting against PAs working above scope (if they had one) ! People have died, the GMC has been taken to court because people think they are seeing a medically qualified doctor. It’s not about ‘growing up’ it’s about patient safety.

Doctor replacement is part of the problem. Things take longer as non doctors do things that then need a doctor anyway, so twice the work. More doctors on the front line the more efficient the NHS would be. Everyone has a role but doctors don’t do nurses jobs or physios or paramedics, because they are not trained to do that. But these days anyone can become ‘Registrar Level’.

We will end up with a 2 tier system where the rich will get a doctor and the poor will get a non doctor. Either you need 5 years Uni, 2 years foundation and 5-8 years of training or you don’t and can learn on the job.

mumsneedwine · 14/07/2025 09:40

@MushMonster here’s those figures for you. Day 1 doctor vs day 1 PA. Also PA is for 37.5 hours a week and the doctor 40. Laughable, you are right,

To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?
To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?
To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?
Fringle · 14/07/2025 09:44

mumsneedwine · 14/07/2025 09:35

Patient care is fighting against PAs working above scope (if they had one) ! People have died, the GMC has been taken to court because people think they are seeing a medically qualified doctor. It’s not about ‘growing up’ it’s about patient safety.

Doctor replacement is part of the problem. Things take longer as non doctors do things that then need a doctor anyway, so twice the work. More doctors on the front line the more efficient the NHS would be. Everyone has a role but doctors don’t do nurses jobs or physios or paramedics, because they are not trained to do that. But these days anyone can become ‘Registrar Level’.

We will end up with a 2 tier system where the rich will get a doctor and the poor will get a non doctor. Either you need 5 years Uni, 2 years foundation and 5-8 years of training or you don’t and can learn on the job.

I don’t disagree with you generally: PAs seem like a bad idea for a whole host of reasons.

But I’d be very cautious about going down the risk route. Some doctors endanger lives through negligence. That’s why there’s a need for the MDU.

Please don’t take that as a slight on doctors. It’s not. Negligence is only about culpability civilly (unless it’s gross negligence) and all professions and professionals get it wrong sometimes.

My point is that the arguments against PAs don’t benefit from wild assertions of danger.

mumsneedwine · 14/07/2025 09:51

@Fringle I agree, all medical staff can make mistakes. But there have been 40 never events in one trust involving just PAs. Some are great and refuse to do things they are not trained for, but some want to play doctor without the hard lifting. And coroners have said in several cases they must not do this as it’s illegal. Yet the GMC does nothing. Hence why AU took them go court. Leng review this week will be interesting - wonder why it’s delayed ?

To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?
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