To think the BMA have misjudged with another doctor's strike?

[Locutus2000]

Last year they got more than anyone else in the NHS along with an improved deal. Nurses and other AHPs received lower rises.

BMA have just announced another 'resident' doctor strike continuing to chase pay restoration to 2008 levels.

Having just had the major win with changes to IMG prioritisation and the clamp-down on PAs it feels a bit tone-deaf and I can't see Streeting going for it.

I think that was probably true for me when I started and I would have regarded it as wholly fair. Quite honestly with pay scales as they were in the 90s the ward cleaner earned more than me for nights at least. I regarded it as an apprenticeship and knew that I had to gain experience to be worth more pay.

pMy neighbour at the time was a senior A&E nurse and one day I overheard her having a bit of a gossip in her garden and I still recall her saying she thought she would outperform any Drs up to registrar in her area. At the time I was offended but now I know that she was right! In my current job I don’t have any trainee Drs (it’s not considered suitable for training) and I work with very senior experienced nurses instead and they are absolutely as good as any Dr up to reg level within their sphere of competence for sure. Some of them are better than some consultants. There comes a point when professional background matters a lot less than experience and attitude.

I think PPs have answered eloquently, @mumsneedwine

It never ceases to amaze me that some people just think by being patronising and rude they will change minds. Not a tactic that had ever worked. You catch more with honey than you do a sting.

I am as entitled to my opinions and comments just as much as others. I believe different facts to you. This is allowed. I do not understand why things have to then become personal attacks. Debate is healthy, but it seems beyond some to not make it toxic because others don’t agree.

Strikes are happening unless Wes does something soon. It’s not all about money, it’s about the way doctors are treated - we can see the level of disrespect on here.

A parking space would be nice when on nights. A working computer with all the keys. A chair to sit on, not a sharps bin. Staying in one hospital/town for more than 6 months. Some say in where you work so can be near family/partner/children. A job after F2 (any job, not just training).

An easy win would be to pay down student loan over 5-10 years (for all NHS staff). Costs government nothing and would give staff a 9%ish pay rise after it’s gone. Rich people who paid up front are already better off.

My opinion. Which is allowed. I disagree with many of you but that’s ok.

@ThePure it’s a day one doctor vs a day one PA. One has a medical degree and can prescribe, one doesn’t.

@ThePure still think it’s fair ?

@ThePure all F1 doctors I know do nights ? Where are you that they don’t ? And the disdain you have for your own F1s says it all. PAs are more useful ! Wow. Wonder who is supposed to ensure the F1s are more useful ? Oh the consultants who are paid to train them.

There is no such thing as a different set of facts. Facts are objective reality. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Your point about the bottleneck, also made by several others, is excellent. If that were front and centre and pay were not an issue I would support the strike.

I also agree that placements should be longer. As I said upthread, if America can manage stable 3-4 year residencies (specialist placements) for about 93% of the F2 equivalents on a much larger scale I don’t know why we can’t do the same.

Your points about working conditions are valid but presumably more widespread. Or are there special computers reserved for resident doctors?

And I do train them so that consequently they are more useful in subsequent jobs but on day 1 they are generally not able to hit the ground running and require a lot of my time and effort which I willingly did for over 10 years on an inpatient ward. I trained many many junior Drs and had consistent good feedback and even an award so I have done my time training junior Drs and medical students. I don’t disdain them in any way it’s just that I value all of my colleagues.

@ThePure day 1 PA vs day 1 doctor. Comments ?

I have never in my entire career had a parking space or my own desk and chair. It would be nice but no-one has that so it’s unrealistic. When some keys went on my laptop recently I hoped I would get a new one but sadly they just replaced the key pad on mine which is well over 5 years old. No one in the NHS has this stuff.

Rotations have been 6 months since time immemorial. It’s to give a wide variety of experience and to share out popular and unpopular jobs so it’s actually for a good reason.

Interesting about floating placements. Friends son was in Manchester. He'd be yanked between three different hospitals and spent a lot of time on the road getting from a to b to c. He thought it not the best use of anyone's time. Thankfully he's now at one teaching hospital and very happy.

Drs will quickly overtake PAs. I don’t think it’s a big issue what other staff are paid personally.

They do.

@ThePure I just hate F1s being called useless. You sound like a supportive and caring consultant. But having seen PAs being given theatre time over F1/2s I find it hard to understand. I know one ward where there are 6 PAs and 4 F2s, guess who gets the night shifts and on calls and guess who gets paid more and more opportunities. If they had more F2s they would have less heavy rotation and get more training.

Agree but a lot of nurses were complaining how they couldn't afford to strike! So I dont want to hear any moaning from the RNs!

@ThePure doctors will not overtake PAs until at least CT3.

Does this make it right ? Because something has always been rubbish it should continue to be so ? Should you not be fighting for better working conditions ?

@ThePure why don’t PAs have to rotate if it’s such a good idea for training, or nurses or physios. Just doctors who seem to need to move all the time.

AI will solve all issues apparently. When as @ThePure says, current IT is rubbish.

The public who fund the NHS will not support putting the resources in until the NHS works better for them and/or their own lives improve.

The You Gov/ Times poll this weekend showed only 35% support and the Ipsos/Guardian poll showed only 26% support including 31% support among Labour voters. This is halved from last year.

I don’t work inpatient any longer (10 years was enough of that) so it may be worse now or in other areas but we only had one PA on my ward and they were helpful and the Drs liked them because they did stuff that Drs didn’t want to do.

I am kind and helpful to junior Drs really I am and they are not useless I didn’t say that I said they would be less useful than an experienced PA. Day 1 in any job which of us is really making a stellar contribution? I know I wasn’t. I just think a bit of humility is appropriate. I was a junior Dr once too of course and it is a steep learning curve. I do not lack all sympathy I just think this strike is a really really poor idea

This exactly

I am afraid there will be no NHS to work in if we lose any more public sympathy and support.

I’ll be honest, I think junior doctors should be paid a bit more. BUT given the state of public finances, there will need to be a trade off - perhaps doctors could have higher salaries now and less generous pensions later? I think that a lot of the issue is about the conditions in the NHS and this is where I agree with doctors - very junior doctors can be sent anywhere at a moment’s notice, have had foreign trained doctors prioritised for specialist jobs over them and therefore there is a shortage of more senior positions and are treated like crap - if you resolved some of this issue, then doctors would feel less like they needed a premium to justify bad conditions.

@ThePure PAs are now doing surgery. AAs are anaesthetising patients with a consultant ‘somewhere in the hospital’. In Derriford the Resident doctors were told they had to sign any prescription a PA asked for, without seeing the patient themselves. This was an email so documented. PAs are getting clinical time over doctors, cutting their training. There is money for PAs but not doctors ? We are about to have a slew of unemployed F2s, competent doctors who can do so much, but the NHS continues to recruit more expensive PAs. Who I feel sorry for as they’ve been sold a dummy.

After tax, pension and student loans an F1 takes home approximately £1,200 a month. In 2008 they took home £1,200 a month, same cash, slightly different world. Saying one day they’ll earn more does not pay their rent today, landlords don’t take promises of future income.

@matresense current resident doctors will already have a less generous pension. The current high employer contribution is to cover the gap in the fund for the current v nice pensions (which resident doctors will never see when 70). And they pay in up to 12.5%, so not free.