Friend shouted at my 2 year old

[hmm01]

So I popped in to see my friend of 15 years today (we’re 30s now) with my 2 year old.

We were chatting and my 2yo was throwing a ball for her dog, then came to sit on my lap and was laughing and over excited about the dog and pulled my hair. This happens very rarely, slapping, biting or pulling hair when over excited and silly.

Before I had a chance to deal with it, my friend shouted so loud that it made me jump and my child burst into tears. She shouted “DO NOT TOUCH YOUR MUM LIKE THAT” she then went on a rant about how I need to do it back or they’ll keep doing it. We are not a shouty house, we don’t scream and shout at our child ever. We have a calm house so said child isn’t used to this. We explain why they are not to do it, show them how to touch gently and then we say “what do you say” and then we get a sorry and a cuddle and then move on from it. I think I was in shock that she shouted so loud at my child.

She has 3 older kids in their teens and to put it as bluntly but nicely as I can, they’ve all suffered as a result of her verbal abuse and I’ve seen her smack them (not hard but I had no children and I didn’t realise the impact in my early 20s) when they were younger and now she doesn’t have a nice relationship with any of them. They spend all their time in their bedrooms and she recently told me she booked a holiday with them and none of them want to go, they want to go and see their Dad for a couple of weeks instead while she goes alone.

I spent a lot of years helping her with them when their Dad left, I was there every morning to help get them ready for school, breakfast etc I did pick ups when I could, had them stay at mine for weeks during holidays so she could get a break and now I feel really angry that she spoke to my child like that. She isn’t their parent. I said “I’m going to shoot” straight after that and left and now I wish I’d of laid into her a little bit and told her to keep her nose out, it’s my child and I’ll speak to them how I see fit and I’m certainly not pulling their hair, biting or smacking them EVER.

How do I navigate this? I am also heavily pregnant and willing to be told that I’m upset over nothing here, my emotions are all over the place recently!

Right. The very name "gentle" sets up a false dichotomy - if they are gentle the rest of the world must be rough. Many "gentle" parents do come across as smug, which is unfortunate because many of them are going to be anything but smug as the years go by.

The biggest disservice "gentle" parents do for their kids is assuming they are little adults, putting feelings first over pretty much everything and teaching them in nearly every interaction that they are not just the centre of their parents' world (which is as it should be) they are the centre of everyone else's world too.

The reality is that it is hugely appropriate to say to a child "No, stop that, do not hurt Timmy, say you are sorry to Timmy" and THEN to discuss why that was unacceptable if the kid is old enough to understand it. This places the child where they are supposed to be, in a community where they are required to care about other people's feelings or at least fake caring in order to get anywhere, not king of the castle allowed to harm others with nothing but a "gentle" lecture or other irrelevant consequence.

It's also absolutely perfectly fine to say to a child "Hurry up, you're going to make us all late" if that is a true and appropriate comment, it's teaching them personal responsibility that others have needs and rights and that dawdling is sometimes selfish and can harm others who have equal needs and rights to theirs. A discussion about that can be had once you are in the car.

The choices are not "use gentle hands" and DON'T HIT ME YOU LITTLE SHIT!!! It's not "I NEVER shout" or "I yell and scream".

To be honest, if I hear someone saying "use gentle hands" I always think of the scene from the Simpsons where they are trying to figure out why Ned has emotional problems, and it turns out his parents were hippy (gentle) parents. Obviously, just a cartoon, but with a reasonable understanding of what "gentle" parenting often means in real terms.

Can't post the image - it's the hippy parents saying to the child psychologist who is trying to treat child Ned's angry outbursts. Ned's dad says "Help us! We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas!"

I suggest you read my posts again. I don’t have a crystal ball so could not predict that she would get on my lap and pull my hair and if you’d of read it, you’d see that I did say no to her. Jesus Christ, you lot are hard work when you don’t even read the thread.

We have read the thread OP.

you're just extremely hostile to any opinion that doesn’t say you’re 100% correct and perfect.

They spend all their time in their bedrooms and she recently told me she booked a holiday with them and none of them want to go

🤣🤣🤣 Tell us you have no experience of teens without telling us you have no experience of teens. If you come back in 16 years and read this you will cringe.

Does she? We never shout in my house either, shouting demonstrates total loss of control. I’m a teacher and have never shouted at a class either, I can discipline effectively without needing to and frankly I’d be embarrassed at letting a child make me lose control of myself like that. My DH grew up in a shouty house and ended up really struggling to express his opinions as an adult as he was so used to getting shouted over.

She should not have shouted at your child. I think we’ve all disagreed with our friends parenting styles from time to time but You are judgmental of her parenting and making assumptions too. Teenagers can be difficult, some prefer to be in their rooms and at some point do not want to go on family holidays so it’s not necessarily the way they were parented. I used to shout alot when mine were younger and there were definite boundries in place. My kids are now all adults and we have a normal, close relationship.

I was on your side until you said “if that was my teenager”. You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about, you have one child who is 2. The only person more clueless about parenting than you is someone who has never had children or is pregnant with their first.

I don’t have any teenagers but I learnt my lesson quickly enough with my children so I’d never be so foolish to say “my children will never do that”.

Your mate shouldn’t have corrected your child, you should have but given how you’ve come across in this thread maybe she thinks you’re a pushover 🤷🏻‍♀️

Just because we are not a shouty house does not mean that we don’t have rules, consequences and boundaries. We simply don’t feel the need to shout to be in control or have the upper hand

You’d hate our household. We are very shouty. For everything. Shouty when we are happy, shouty when we are excited, shouty when we are unhappy in general or with each other. Basically, shouty about the weather! Nothing to do with being controlling or having the upper hand🤷‍♀️.

Thank you for offering a balanced view.

I absolutely would not stand for DD hitting me repeatedly and agree with you there.

On the occasion that she has pulled hair, bitten or hit, a firm no, short explanation of why we don’t (“we only use our hands to be kind to others not to hurt them/make them sad”) and then moving on from it works for DD, she’s never repeatedly lashed out and if she did I would 100% just leave it as a firm no and move her away from me.

I know right! Maybe you should call the police as people may be in danger. Maybe OP's toddler is as evil as Stewie from Family Guy.

She saw your child pulling your hair and there being no consequence or even anything said to the child. So she decided to say something. It takes a village. You say that you came and helped her parent her kids, she's doing the same.

You’re absolutely right, I would hate your household if it involves shouting at each other when unhappy.

Please read my posts again, I told DD “no”, I explained why we don’t pull hair and she stopped. Are all of you genuinely lacking reading skills here? 🤦🏻‍♀️

OP, ignore all these posters saying you don't have boundaries with your child and that she'll consequently turn into a monster as a result. I grew up in household with a mum who had a temper and she shouted at me all the time for any little misdemeanor, it did affect me negatively and I chose not to parent that way. There is no physical punishment in our house and we very very rarely raise our voices (nobody's perfect) and the times when tempers have been lost then we've sat down with the kids after and apologised/explained. It's very possible to raise kids into decent human beings this way, you can have boundaries (as you've explained) without shouting at or hurting your kids. Children model behaviour, if you treat them with respect then you will get it back. My kids are teenagers now and are both lovely, we have zero behavioural issues. Of course part of that is their natural temperament, I certainly don't take all or even most of the credit, but I think growing up in a warm, kind and respectful home has helped.

What on earth are you on about? My point in my last post was that kids will shout and bully, you can’t stop things from happening at school or nursery when you aren’t there. At some point someone will shout at them.

Thanks for your reply, you’ve put it far more eloquently than I could.

Being a millenial, I’m surrounded by a lot of (well intentioned) gentle parents (who are 99% permissive instead) and it’s really tiresome at toddler groups when you have a 2+ year child (groups are 1-5yo) being violent, snatching from my young toddler and all you hear is a meek “we don’t do that Timmy, shall we be nice Timmy, share Timmy” as the mother sits on a chair smiling at me and I’m literally shielding my own toddler on the floor. Most Of the time to observers, the kid being gentle patented isn’t listening and it usually ends up with a physical intervention anyway (or in my toddler groups - straight up ignorance) .

I myself went through a hair pulling and biting stage (sure I will again) and I just kept putting my daughter down and saying NO. Maybe that’d be deemed as shouting in today’s world but I don’t believe a toddler working on basic instincts understands me saying “let’s discuss your unusual angry outburst there dear”. I truly believe they still work on the most animalistic level of anger, hunger, comfort etc and causation and effect is the best you can hope for. E.g being put down when hurting mummy and mummy not playing into it. OP is probably rolling her eyes thinking she has an Einstein who works differently and understands the Freudian ID and super ego.

Do I know everything? No. Do I shout or hit? No. Do I enjoy being around gentle toddler parents? Absolutely not. Makes most toddler groups miserable so whilst I don’t fully agree with the friend, I do empathise.

Your first post (which should have contained all of the relevant information; I haven't read all of your posts as you seem so hostile to people who are giving any input that you don't like) said -

"my 2yo was throwing a ball for her dog, then came to sit on my lap and was laughing and over excited about the dog and pulled my hair. This happens very rarely, slapping, biting or pulling hair when over excited and silly.
Before I had a chance to deal with it, my friend shouted so loud that it made me jump and my child burst into tears."

So you didn't in fact say that you had told her no (based on your opening post; as I say, not everyone reads numerous updates). So I'm not sure why you're being rude and cheeky to people who are answering your post? In all honestly it sounds like you let your daughter act this way and don't provide any discipline or correction and your friend is sick of seeing the shit parenting so she tried to provide a bit of discipline.

Although I didn’t shout (yes of course very occasionally, but more so I could be heard above the racket) no way would I ever have said use gentle hands 😬 I was more the ‘stop doing that now! it hurts and you wouldn’t like it if someone did that to you!’ said in a no-nonsense and brisk way (more a dialogue with imaginary exclamation marks).

Gentle parenting often gets confused with permissive parenting. I think OP is doing fine and her style aligns more with my own than the shouting method. People (adults and children) switch off if they just get shouted at as the norm.

I would never ever let my DD intentionally hurt, snatch or bully another child just to make it clear but thank you for the assumption that I would think this is okay.

I’m going to be quite snarky here (I try not to be usually) but after OP having a go at everyone including myself, me thinks it’s her who needs to cap her emotions and communicate more effectively…in the style of gentle parenting…

You stated something incorrect (regarding a child continuing to lash out even when told no) which isn’t relevant to my post as DD did not continue to do it and never has.

Hmmmm. I'd wait until you have two teenagers in the house before you say you don't need to shout. I don't need to shout at my 5 year old, but the 15 year old pushes every button and, yes, I do at him.

Fair enough you don't want your friend shouting at your child. Tell her. But stop judging her. You haven't walked in her shoes YET.

Your friend simply wouldn’t have felt the need to step in if you’d dealt with it.

~This happens very rarely, slapping, biting or pulling hair when over excited and silly.
Before I had a chance to deal with it, my friend shouted~

You literally wrote this in your initial post??! Perhaps reread what you’re expecting us to respond to??

My kids have NEVER slapped, bitten or pulled my hair. Not because I’m a perfect parent. Because I corrected this behaviour the minute it arose as babies.

And just to be clear, the view of gentle parenting is starting to be that it isn't particularly effective. But the results of that won't come home to roost for you for at least a couple of years.

Holy crap on a cracker. Why do people persist in thinking that its ok for kids to bite/pull/scratch etc?
We were never allowed to do that and sharp reprimands were delivered.
Kids must fear the consequenses of their actions. None of this "gentle hands" crap, which is the least effective method to have ever been floated about

Christ. I'm with your friend on this one. You clearly do not appropriatly discapline your child. "when she gets excited" christ. Once and done for that type of behaviour.