To think women taking their husband’s name doesn’t have to be sexist?

[RealNavyEagle]

I know it’s a traditional thing and some people see it as outdated or patriarchal but I actually think there’s something quite nice about a whole family sharing the same name. It doesn’t feel like “losing my identity” to me, just part of building a shared one.

AIBU to think it’s not automatically a regressive choice and that it can just be a personal one?

People who want to reduce sexism in society care.
You said it yourself, Miss = child. Does that genuinely sound like a title that commands respect on a level with Sir, one that refers to female children? And is it ok that from the age of 4 or 5 kids are being fed subtle messages in schools that men should be given more respect than woman? Of course it isn't.

Mademoiselle is basically archaic here.

Even my two year old daughter gets post addressed to "Madame".

So why are children coming to school constantly calling all teachers ‘Miss’? Why haven’t their supposedly such diligent feminist mothers taught them not to say that then? Why is everything the school’s responsibility? Why does no child ever use ‘Ms’ as the default? Sort it out parents!

Master = male child. I address cards to male children as Master, not Sir or Mr. Children of both sexes have different titles to adults.

I’ve been Ms for 50 odd years. If kids don’t “get it” it’s high time they did.

That's it, blame the mothers for any parenting issues 😂
Look you sound happy with a lot of bits of everyday sexism and I'm clearly not going to change your mind on any of it. It is frustrating if you're teaching young kids with those kind of entrenched attitudes but there is fuck all I can do to change that, other than hope they have some other strong feminist influences in their lives.

Other than female teachers it seems who are defaulted to the female child moniker while male teachers default to an adult male one.

Its mothers on here who are discussing this who have the issue with it, if Dads have an issue they can also discuss what to call teachers with their children.

Genuinely most teachers have bigger fish to fry than if a young child opts to call them Miss.

I’m certainly teaching my daughter that yes, it is still more than fantastic to get married, be proposed to, wear rings, change your name, be a Mrs and be a home maker. She won’t get any support for these ways from modern schools, that’s for sure. Proper dictatorships which only value exam results and careers. Snobby institutions which look down on manual trades. Many want to destroy these options for women, and can’t hack push back from those who still value traditional ways. Plenty still do, so we’ll all have to rub along together 😊

In my DC's south London primary - not leafy - all staff including the head were addressed by their first names. With absolutely no loss of authority,

It was Outstanding Ofsted, got excellent results despite having very high % of every index of deprivation and disadvantage, and bullying was all but unknown and dealt with immediately and effectively. A happy school with good behaviour.

Perhaps good teachers with strong sound pedagogy do not need to rely on titles to maintain respect and authority.

At secondary there was no 'miss ./ sir', all staff were addressed by their title and name. All titles were considered normal by the kids - Ms, Miss, Mrs, Dr, Mr - and the just remembered the title alongside the name. London kids have no problem with Ms - they see it and pronounce it as normal. Just as they learned to use names from Vietnamese, Nigerian, Polish, Irish heritage - a range of things not familiar to begin with to any given child. No fuss.

Meanwhile I am surprised that as a teacher you are not discerning the difference between criticising / critiquing a system and 'commenting negatively' about individuals who of course can use their own free choice as to what to do. Free choice for the individual does not necessarily mean that the over-riding default system is not built on sexist principles and expectations.

I am an atheist who celebrates Christmas. If a Christian tells me it is a religious festival at heart, I can only agree - and still make my choice to celebrate it in a cultural non-religious way. But I can hardly pretend that I am not continuing a European Christian tradition - because it just is!

As the tradition of women changing their names just is based in patriarchy.

Christmas hardly has the same religious significance either nowadays, hence why it is embraced by atheists. You can celebrate Christmas in a materialistic way, enjoying spending hundreds/thousands in presents/outings/food/parties/sending cards which don’t even say ‘Merry Christmas’ on them etc without setting a foot in a church or properly understanding what it’s about. Another tradition which has evolved with a less religious society.

And other traditions can evolve wrt names.

When I was a primary teacher the kids had no problem pronouncing my Ms title. Sadly they struggled to continue to call me it when I referred to my husband as they have already been conditioned to obey the patriarchy.

I don’t get your point.

People are free to celebrate Christmas in a deeply religious way/non-religious way/not at all.

Same with names and changing or not changing them.

Just because things evolve and options expand doesn’t mean some have to be disregarded entirely.

Marriage/Christmas are deeply religious matters for many, and religion is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act…you know, the actual law in our country.

OK, Forget analogy.

There can be a critique and acknowledgment of a history, a tradition, an origin of tradition (in this case patriarchal origins for surname changing by women) and sexist behaviour (pressure on men to not use their wives' surnames, reluctance by men to consider changing to a woman's name, or even hyphenate and use both when that is what she has chosen to do, ILs refusing to use a woman's surname and insisting on using her DH's surname. etc) - there can be a critique of all this...without implying criticism of individual women who choose to change their name.

And it is even possible to say 'great - you have made your choice, for your own reasons, but it isn't a feminist choice while the old tradition prevails' - STILL without that being a criticism that anyone needs to get defensive about.

There are of course different branches of feminism, choice feminism being one of them. Let’s agree to disagree- that’s allowed, we live in a democracy 😊

It is, but one of our opinions is informed and the other one is uninformed. People are allowed strong views even when they don't know what they're talking about, but then nobody suggested otherwise.

As I say, what interests me more about your stance isn't the value judgement that you aren't qualified to make, but rather the reason why it's so important to you to keep making it.

There are indeed different branches of feminism - none of them involve appeasing or perpetuating the patriarchy.

Sure, which doesn't tell us anything about how much fuss they'd be willing to kick up over use of titles in decades to come. And meanwhile, no one family has the necessary level of influence needed to unilaterally keep the use of titles going and relevant.

This is a wider trend that's already happening and whilst it's possible it won't continue, if it doesn't, it's not because of you and your kids. It takes a looooot of people observing social norms to keep them relevant. You don't have that sort of control yourself, nobody does.

It's not fact. Look it up!

The 'is' was agreeing with your all down to opinion part.

It is about opinion, but more importantly, my opinion is based on actually knowing something about the subject and yours isn't.

The super rich have far more power and influence than any individual or family, and doubt they’ll be in a hurry to get rid of their titles.

Individuals and families will always do their own thing and opt in or out of what suits them, eg increasing numbers of parents opting to home educate for a myriad of reasons. Those numbers have increased hugely where I live.

You’ll never get everyone agreeing on anything, that’s for sure.

Dont be so condescending! How can you possibly be an expert on the subject. Even the poll on here is 50/50. I dont think its sexist, you do, we wont agree will we.

Are the super rich, as a cohort, particularly attached to being called Mrs now? Perhaps you could furnish us with some research.

I agree everyone won't agree on everything, but that actually backs up my argument. It's difficult to also hold that view alongside your belief that Mrs isn't going anywhere. The fact that everyone doesn't agree on everything may well be one of the reasons why titles are being used less. People not bothering with titles and avoiding using them for others is actually an example of the opting out that you mention. The traditional title model is waning.

To be clear, what we're discussing here is whether it's important. This is the first time you've decided that women experiencing this treatment if keeping their own names and using a neutral title when men don't isn't sexist. A surprising turn of events.

I didn't say I was an expert on the subject. One doesn't need to be an expert to know more about it than you. Because you don't. You clearly have no personal experience of it, and nothing you've written indicates that you've got eg professional or research expertise on the issue.

Basically what happened is that you asked me about my experience of sexism, I told you, and then you gave an unasked for view about how important it is that I attribute no value to because why would I, really? It's just not that interesting to hear from people who don't know what they're talking about. What is interesting is why you're so invested in the issue.

I don't think I've seen anyone use the title "Master" in real life for over 30 years.

Look, you do you, but don't be surprised to find that your customs are considered quaint little old lady customs well before you feel ready to be seen as a quaint little old lady.

I think this might become the next generations version of the blue rinse.