Termination of pregnancies - too willing to terminate, maybe there are other choices?

[Ilovepastafortea]

I have trouble with the issue of terminating pregnancies.

For context I had 5 miscarriages & 1 baby born 'sleeping' at 29 weeks.

Also 2 of my (3) husbands were adopted-well DH's mother was adopted in the 1920's. The point is if abortion was available in 1963 & 1926 neither of them would have existed. Their childless mothers wouldn't have had babies to love & care for.

If my first husband had been aborted my lovely son wouldn't exist. He killed himself at the age of 32 leaving me with a baby. But at least I had my baby which was part of him.

If my DH's mother had been aborted my 3 lovely step children & 7 gorgeous grandchildren wouldn't be here. Both of my step sons served in the Royal Navy - one in special forces & got his Green (Marine) beret. My Step daughter is a nurse & worked in A&E for many years, is now a Matron. She has saved many lives & made a difference to many other people's lives including taking unpaid leave to be there when her grandmother was dying.

But then I understand why some people do it.

I can particularly understand it if the woman has been abused or raped - who would want to bring their abuser's or rapist's child into the world. I get that.

I just wish that they would think about having their unwanted baby adopted so that someone who can't have a baby can love & care for it.

My heart goes out to those with an unwanted pregnancy & facing this.

I don't know what I'd do to be honest.

I have no doubt that most women terminate a pregnancy after much heart searching & grief. However, I also hear about women who are terminating their 3rd or more pregnancies & using it as a method of birth control.

So brings me around to AIBU to ask if people terminate a pregnancy number 3 or 4 are being unreasonable?

Or not.

Just canvassing opinions.

How many kids have you adopted OP? There are 100s of kids in this country right now who are in long term foster care because no one is ready to adopt them.

A lot of kids who go through adoption, go through trauma that lasts a life time. Many end up going from one foster family to another, and suffer abuse. Please don't pretend you care about the "baby".

Well I haven’t seen any of that on this thread. Just people giving their opposing views. Which is surely exactly why someone posts on AIBU?

Medical opinion would agree that dna = life

The law is fair. Ive not argued it. No woman should be forced to carry a baby and give birth.

Ive pointed out that someone who doesn’t agree with abortion is not wrong about taking a life. I don’t believe there is right or wrong answers in abortion.

Not your body, not your baby, not your choice.

You don't want an abortion, fine - don't have one. You do not get to dictate to anyone else.

You’ve not seen it on this thread because I’ve literally just typed that I won’t be saying my opinions. Why did you feel the need for your first comment btw?

You seem to be under the impression that abortion being illegal means it doesn't happen. In which case you're incredibly naive.

Abortion was absolutely available in 1926. And because it was illegal it was unregulated and women died. Or they attempted it themselves. And died. Or became infertile.

Abortion will always, and has always, existed. It needs to be legal, safe and regulated to protect women. No ifs or buts.

If knowing about other women's abortions upsets you so, don't read about them. Protect your own mental health by avoiding the topic completely and do something better with your time instead.

Why did I feel the need for my first comment? Because I was responding to your comment on a public forum. It’s how they work.

Bet you would if it was your baby!

@Ilovepastafortea you mention what if abortion had been an option in 1926 and 1963. Abortions have always been sought and available, dirty backstreet abortions without meds or anaesthetic and killed many desperate women.

I was brought up by medical parents who worked in these times, saw the desperation, disease, trauma and death. They were catholic but supported a legal safe path for women to seek abortion. They strongly influenced my opinion.

I have been lucky and never needed to contemplate abortion. That is luck. I’m not sure I could have had one, but I will defend others right to seek an abortion without judgement. Unless you spend months, or even years, learning a person’s life history which led them to that point, you cannot judge.

This is an interesting mantra. It would not be acceptable to say this in instances of self neglect (we wouldnt stand by and say not your body) or child neglect (we wouldnt stand by and say not your child).
When does societies responsibility kick in… at birth? I guess if a woman started trying to self abort her baby at 38 weeks the new law would say that’s okay?
Again - I don’t think we should force women to have babies but I’m interested in the arguments being presented

Addressed in what way though? Telling people to use hindsight, reminding them that various contraceptive methods exist?

Once it's done it's done if someone doesn't want the child it's much less burden and cost to the state than going through with it and putting it in care.

No. Why would I?

Your arguments are bizarre. Feel free to not have an abortion. But why tell other women what they should feel?

Pregnancy is a massive ordeal for a woman's body. Not one should be forced to go through it if they don't want.

Adoption isn’t a solution for infertility. Children who are adopted suffer enormously from being separated from their mothers. Newborns can identify not just their mothers voice but their mothers language.
The separation is hugely traumatic and stressful. This is true even for the very rare cases where children are willingly relinquished without further suffering. In the case of forced adoptions the mother also suffers emotionally.

The reality is that the vast majority of adoptions in the UK happen because children have been removed from families/mothers due to being at risk of significant harm. These children have often suffered drug and alcohol exposure, high cortisol levels, violence (including in utero) poor nutrition, inherited trauma etc PLUS the trauma of separation. These children are not substitutes for birth children. Even if they are removed at birth and placed straight into the arms of a loving caregiver, they are likely to have a lot of difficulties such as -
Feotal alcohol syndrome/effects
Attachment disorder
Hyper vigilance
Sensory processing disorder
plus there can be inheritable conditions which are undiagnosed in the birth parents due to their complex situations (eg criminality) muddying the water, such as ASD, ADHD, mental health conditions.

The adoption system in this country is not fit for purpose, support is totally inadequate (and has recently been further reduced) and there can be many serious long term problems.

A lot of these children required much more intense parenting, education and support than their peers.

There is not an over supply of perfectly healthy, perfectly nurtured babies ready to form perfect attachments to any childless person who fancies parenting.

Expecting women who are not in the right circumstances to become mothers to carry and nurture their babies to full term, and go through the risks and complications of pregnancy and birth (and change their bodies, maybe suffering long term health effects) in order to supply offspring for childless women is ridiculous!

I am speaking from personal experience of infertility and adoption.

Adoption is not a cure for infertility.

If Hitler had been aborted WW2 might not have happened. If Osama Bin Laden had been aborted the twin towers might never have fell. If Rose and Fred West had been aborted ten young women wouldn't have been tortured and murdered. I can think of a lot of evil people who'd have been better off in the biological waste of an abortion clinic.

"So and so wouldn't have existed and done xyz if they'd been aborted" is a stupid, strawman argument used by people who just want to hide behind something that sounds righteous when what they mean to say is "I don't think women should have the right to choose what happens to their own body".

Thing is though, people do stand by whilst others are out there harming themselves or being harmed by others and say nothing until it’s too late. People also stand by whilst children are abused and hurt and do nothing, and that is how we end up with horrific stories like the baby P case in the news.

My comment is purely relating to my views on abortion, however. If it isn’t your body, or your baby, then it’s not your choice as to the outcome.

I was shocked at a recent podcast with Lilly Allen and Marquitta Oliver where they discussed how many terminations each of them had received, turns out it’s around 4/5 each. I’m all for personal choice and it’s our bodies our choice, but not like this 🤦‍♀️.

If you don’t want one, don’t have one. Anything else isn’t your business.

If one of my parents hadn't emigrated from another country then I wouldn't exist. But that doesn't make emigration morally right. Different children might have existed if they hadn't made that decision - because of their decision, they don't. That doesn't make emigration morally wrong. Your husbands also wouldn't exist if their natal mothers / grandmothers had used contraception more successfully. Is contraception wrong?

I think if you really believed this moral argument, then to be consistent, you'd have to be in favour of everyone bringing as many people into existence as possible. Forced birthing at a massive scale - that's the best way to prevent the non existence of as many potential human beings as possible. But noone really believes this except possibly a few complete wack jobs so personally I don't buy that argument one bit.

I don’t like the idea of abortions and in an ideal world brilliant access to 100% reliable birth control and no abusive men would make them unnecessary. But given that doesn’t exist I dislike the idea of forced pregnancy and unwanted children more.

Saying why can’t a woman just choose adoption is so simplistic. If my DH vasectomy somehow failed I would hate to but would have an abortion. I couldn’t / wouldn’t want to raise another child but I can’t see how adoption instead wouldn’t be massively confusing for my existing children, hugely judged by my family and traumatic for the child when grown when they discover they just weren’t wanted. I can think of so many other scenarios too where adoption wouldn’t be a healthy choice.

If I’d not had a termination when I did, which was absolutely the right thing to do at the time, then I wouldn’t have had my lovely daughter and certainly not my son. There are too many “what if’s” in your argument. There is no baby until it’s here. There is nothing that would persuade me away from a woman’s right to autonomy over their own body. You do you.

I’m not sure about the ‘this person wouldn’t exist and that person wouldn’t exist’

You could say that about using contraceptives or choosing to only have a certain number of children ‘thank goodness my MIL decided to have a third otherwise my husband wouldn’t exist’

My mum had a loss at 26 weeks. She got pregnant with me a few months later around the time that her due date would have been. It’s a strange thought that if she hadn’t suffered that devastating loss then I wouldn’t exist. It’s just one of those things.

The baby that would be born to a parent that didn’t want it with no guarantee it could be adopted and a care system on its knees?