To think that even this horrendous tragedy won't change America's stance on climate change?

[AnnaQuayInTheUk]

I'm just reading about the dreadful flash flood in Texas and all those poor little girls who have drowned. So sad.

But, just as endless school shootings make no difference to America's attitude towards guns, I don't think this will change many people's minds - and especially Trump's - on climate change. Deniers will continue to argue that flash floods have always happened, as have wildfires, without any recognition that the frequency and intensity of these weather events are affected by human driven climate change.

So
YABU. - this will be a wake up call for the US government
YANBU - the US will still refuse to work towards carbon reduction/net zero

Flash floods are a normal occurrence in many places. Just because it may not have happened in years and campsites and houses are built there doesn't mean it won't happen again unfortunately.
It's very sad for the families affected non the less.
Dh went to college in Arizona where flash floods occur and was shocked at first seeing water appear from seemingly nowhere as the rain was further away and the gullies washout so fast taking cars with it.

If something is a normal occurrence, would you want to increase the chances of this normal occurrence so they became even more common?

Bingo! The US experiences almost constant severe weather events, including periodic flooding of the Guadalupe river. I've lived in 13 states and have experienced every possible natural disaster except a tsunami and a volcanic eruption. I've been through wildfires in California, hurricanes in Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina and Florida, tornadoes in Texas, Maryland, North Carolina, South Carolina and Oklahoma, including water spouts while sailing in North Carolina. I've lived through blizzards in West Virginia, Virginia and Maryland and hail and severe lightning in every state.

Weather shit happens, especially in the US. Warnings were given in advance and the National Weather Service advised people, including specifically campers, to stay off the floodplain because the remnants of Hurricane Barry were heading that way. If anyone is to blame, it is the adult campers who failed to heed the warnings. I was a Girl Scout leader many years ago, and I would NEVER have taken my girls out when such warnings were posted.

Which is why it's surprising for a country that experiences such severe weather events that attitudes towards climate change is such a divisive issue, when climate change will increase the likelihood of such severe weather events.

I feel like this too
Of course many Americans didn't vote for trump and are horrified by his actions
But this is the 2nd time he's been voted in and everyone knew he would be more extreme. When this type of thing happens or yet another mass shooting why should I care more about them than those in real plight, due partly to US actions such as poverty no democracy etc. These people are fortunate enough to have the means to support themselves. If they don't do so, or choose to cancel initiatives that would help, then its on them
I suspect many will feel the same way about us if we vote reform in after the Brexit shit show

The Texas Hill Country has always been known for flash floods. This is not even close to a new thing.

The recent Trump cuts to the National Weather Service and NOAA might be a factor.

I think only thing that will enact change around fossil fules in US is money - if fossil fuels get more expensive and if they get left behind as rest of the world moved to other energy sources.

American not only country to subsides to keep fossil fuel prices low but if they fuck up their econmoy they not be able to keep doing this - but that will have a poltical price.

The US news sites don't help - very politcal in output - but also their understanding seems limited - they are putting tourist numbers being down to tariffs and tit for tat reponses - and not how tourist are being treated by immigration or threats to other countries soverighty.

What is “America’s attitude toward guns”? Most Americans are in favour of tightening gun control but the NRA has a powerful influence on politics.

I find this kind of thread a bit unsavoury, using a tragedy to imply that Americans are responsible for their fate via their wrong beliefs.

If it was that important to them, they would make it happen. After all they allegedly live in the greatest democracy in the world

All the more so considering the girls were at a Christian camp. The Christian Right in the US have been taken over by Trump and MAGA; I wonder if a disaster like this will make them question whether they've been following a false idol. The same community that blamed Hurricane Katrina on New Orleaners' sinful lifestyle must surely wonder if there's a message in this tragedy?

Poor kids and their parents though.

If you want to show that these events are becoming more likely due to climate change then find examples of these events where the last occurrence of this magnitude wasn’t 38 years ago.

But they are! I don’t buy the ‘most Americans are sweetness and light’ mullarkey - it’s YOUR political system/vile culture that has got you into this so YOUR job to sort it out!

Remember the Spanish flash floods a few years ago?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c98eylqeg06o

While scientists are reluctant to say any single extreme event was caused by climate change, researchers have been quick to point out the role that rising temperatures have had in making the Spanish floods worse.
“No doubt about it, these explosive downpours were intensified by climate change,” said Dr Friederike Otto, from Imperial College London, who leads an international group of scientists who try to understand the role that warming plays in these type of events.
“With every fraction of a degree of fossil fuel warming, the atmosphere can hold more moisture, leading to heavier bursts of rainfall.”

Weather researchers say the likely main cause of the intense rainfall was a natural weather event that hits Spain in Autumn and Winter.
Called a "gota fría” or cold drop, it sees cold air descend on the warmer waters of the Mediterranean Sea, which has been experiencing extremely hot conditions over the past couple of years.
The hot moist air on the surface of the sea then rises quickly, leading to tall, towering clouds that are blown ashore and deposit large amounts of rain.
Researchers say that climate change directly impacted the amount of rain that these clouds carried, pushing it up by 7% for every 1C degree of warming.

Not helped by a drier climate leading to the potential for water not to be absorbed as easily

"“As well as increased rainfall extremes, we are seeing hotter summer which can bake the soil and reduce its ability to absorb water,” said Prof Mark Smith, from the University of Leeds.
“In turn this amplifies the more direct effects of increased rainfall intensities as more of that water makes it into the rivers.”"

I didn’t know that about the warnings. That’s really sad.

Here's a CNN article that discussed the watches and warnings issued.

"Kerr County’s judge said the county does not have a warning system for flooding, while Kerrville City manager said they “could not anticipate” the severity of the flooding despite the warnings because the event happened so quickly. "

It sounds possibly like a failure of coordinating emergency management and sending first responders to warn people to get out when the first warning came over the EMS system.

When tropical storms hit mid northern Mexico, a lot of time they curve and dump flooding rains over the Hill Country. I lived there for years just off Lake Travis, there were floods every 2 to 3 years.

I can't see every adult at the camp having EMS on their phones switched off.

Being able to have more data to inform models and improve predictions of potentially catastrophic weather events would help, wouldn't it?

Is it a bad thing to discuss the potential impact of budget cuts at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and an attitude towards climate change that might make it more difficult to predict such events?

I think the cuts are a big deal, especially given the kind of weather events we deal with in the US.

The article says the NWS office is missing an important link in emergency response.

"the Austin-San Antonio office is missing a warning coordination meteorologist — a role that serves as a crucial, direct link between forecasters and emergency managers. "

And this is where it looks like the response to prevent loss of life broke down.

"Rapid runoff is expected, with locally considerable flash and urban flash flooding possible … the nocturnal timing will also enhance the hazard potential and impacts,” the forecasters predicted. They also noted the potential for a historic rainfall event, though it’s unclear if that messaging reached emergency managers. "

That scares the hell out of me.

My niece is at this camp. There were no warnings.
She has lost everything, but is alive.
No matter how shite America is, there are real people dying and suffering here.

There are people suffering and dying all over the world, why should I care any more that it’s people in shite America than anywhere else? I care less.

Though I will always sympathise with youngsters on a personal level. They didn’t create whichever shite country they are in.

I totally agree. Absolutely. But at the end of the day, young children are missing and thar is a tragedy, no matter where it is.

It was a Christian camp but that won't stop all the bible bashers from believing in a just and merciful god. Ignorance and faith tend to go hand in hand.

You know what I find really distasteful (I know nobody asked…but you get hear anyway). People like @AnnaQuayInTheUk who use tragedy to pontificate about their pet causes.

Like, how do sleep at night after preaching on the corpses of those that died tragically?

If people don't discuss such things, then it's only going to make future tragedies more likely and more people will die because climate change is making such events more likely.

It amazes me how people can put their head in the sand and not realise this..

Agreed

Hey, Flicitricity, I'm glad she's ok.

But there were no warnings?

The article says that the first warning that should have triggered the emergency phone alerts went out at 1:14 AM. That points to a big emergency alert system failure. If the camps along the Guadalupe don't have reliable cell service, that says there needs to be a coordinated effort by emergency management for notification and evacuation of those camps. If there were no warnings, that indicates a massive failure somewhere in the system that cost a lot of lives.