To think it really is a man's world?

[TreatTreat]

We all know it is, but itv1 confirmed it even more for me today by calling the Euros tournament the 'women's euro tournament'. TV stations sure as hell don't introduce men's tournaments with their gender in the introduction.

I have worked in the area of vehicle design and for at least the last decade or so, designers have increasingly taken into account the 5th percentile woman. Much of this is driven by legislation. I think this started in the early 2000s

I say increasingly because the 5th percentile female model isn’t required to be used everywhere, but it is getting better.

One of the less obvious reasons for the apparent disparity in male/female deaths and injuries is due to the fact that women tend to drive smaller and lighter cars than their male counterparts. Smaller, lighter cars generally perform less well in crash situations.

Yes. That men are viewed as the 'default human' is thrown into stark relief when reading accounts like this.

I think that this alone is worthy of unpicking. Small car equal's 'women's car' - where does this equivalence come from?

I’m a woman and I can’t watch women’s football, it’s so boring and feels amateur compared to men’s football.

Agree with your observations but it is men who have invented and made these things.

Not to be goady, but a genuine question: Do we need to ask men to start making things to suit us and why aren't women doing this for themselves?

Seems weird to complain about wanting men to accommodate us when designing things if it is going to be at their detriment.

I'm not actually going to reply to any of this.

But I will say this: i have been on MN for 20 years and I have chuckled and laughed many times, but this entire post had me honestly belly laughing from start to finish due to how ridiculous, entitled, and clueless it was.

I feel very sorry for any women in your life.

I agree. Sorry but there you are. It will take a long time before it's seen as a sport for women.

As a woman of averageish height, but with a disproportionately small body and large breasts, my anecdotal theory is that the reason that women are injured more often is because the seat belt does not sit in a comfortable or effective place on us.

And the reason some of us drive smaller cars is so that we can actually SEE out of the car. Nothing annoys me more than when I see a woman driving some ridiculous tank that she is struggling with... becuas she can barely see over the steering wheel. I am an excellent driver and have driven large cars regularly, but I would never buy a large one unless I could actually sit high enough, and many of them do not allow me to do so. This was a key consideration when we bought our family car (Skoda Octavia) 10 years ago.

Similarly, DH is a very average sized man but he does not like being in my car (Audi A1), particularly as a passenger, because he feels hugely cramped. I loaned my car to a male friend who is much taller and broader than DH and when he came to pick it up and loaded all the DC into it his and mine, we all fell about laughing for 5 minutes before he could go anywhere as it was so funny. He told me afterwards he really enjoyed driving it as it's nippy and responsive, but that he would not be rushing out to buy a new one for himself as the driving was fun, feeling like a giant was not!

There are often female trolls on MN but I've never, ever, seen anything as juvenile as 'you're a tool' - this instantly stood out as a male poster to me before I'd even read the whole thread

Actually, I am going to ask ONE question, because I can't help myself.

Do you genuinely think that even if your theory is true - women's bodies are just not as robust - that therefore it's okay that there hasnt been any effort to mitigate for this?

I mean, men's penis's are less robust than a woman's breasts or vagina and so, in certain sports, where they're at risk - eg cricket - men routinely wear protective gear over them. Is there any chance, in any world, that you could see how perhaps this is an example of how there's just an assumption that if something is bad for women it's just "how it is" vs when something is bad for men?

I'm not hugely optimistic, but I thought I'd ask.

@MageQueen Yes, if that poster has a female partner I feel very sorry for her

😂

Science, engineering and entrepreneurship have traditionally been male dominated which is explains much of this. Better representation is certainly one way to solve this.

At no point is anyone suggesting than men have been doing this maliciously (and the book Invisible Women certainly doesn't suggest this despite what Daring would like to think) it's simply a case of not thinking or understanding that women might have different needs.

However, I do think that these days there is no excuse for developing products that ignore the needs of 50% of the population.

Which is the sex demographic consistently paid less than the other?

Which is the sex demographic generally expected to give up work when a baby is born, and for whom legislation/social conditioning makes it really difficult for the other demographic to take on a similar caring role?

Which is the sex demographic consistently discriminated against in the workplace, particularly if they draw attention to their membership of that demographic?

Which is the sex demographic more likely to be passed over for promotion?

These considerations and the myriad others like them should answer your question.

Also, women have made a great many things to suit us. We've been embroiled for at least the past hundred years in battles for the right to a democratic voice, to be equal citizens and not drudges, for the right to our own physical, bodily automony such as not being raped in marriage (a law which is still inconsistently applied and less effective than it should be), for better rights in the workplace (still also a work in progress), for resistance against the most violent and pressing issue of our time, VAWG, of late even for our own spaces, participation in our own sports, and the retention of medical discourse against increased erasure of women and womanhood from the picture.

Are men embroiled in these kinds of battles simply for a level playing field in life?

This, too, answers your question.

Yep. In the past day when I've made an observation an incel/MRA style poster took umbrage to I've had 'you're an idiot', 'you're a loon', 'you're mentally unstable' and 'seek help'.

Poor darlings just can't resist giving themselves away when the temptation to verbally attack a difficult woman proves too much.

It's like playing whack-a-mole.

I don't know anything about this area, but that just seems logical to me.

Sums things up rather nicely.

...a man is simply significantly physically stronger, & hence far more robust

You're reducing physical resilience to a masculinised conception of strength alone. Women are, in some respects, more physically resilient - robust - than men (eg. lifespan). Like you, I don't know much about this. Unlikely you, however, I acknowledge this limitation, and as such defer to the peer-reviewed research summarised by the author of the book in question.

Test this hypothesis

Such scientific language for such a comically inadequate suggestion! I honestly don't know where to start with the absurdities of your proposed comparison.

...even if the average crash dummy was say solely designed on the average male, which I sincerely doubt...

You have every right to sincerely doubt any number of things, up to and including whether the earth is spherical and evolution's a thing. Again, though, I'd suggest you acknowledge your own limitations before making statements like this. I'm going with the extensive evidence that establishes this is typically the case. This used to be known, rather quaintly, as stats, facts & averages etc.

...would that really make such a significant difference to the level of injury incurred as the above stats appear to indicate it might have...

Hopefully given your interest, you'll read the expansive explanation of this in the book itself. It's fascinating to see the science and medicine behind it (eg. analysis of skeletal structure, placement of internal organs, relative positioning of air bags, steering wheels and seatbelts etc. - if I remember rightly, one of these features actively protects men but literally endangers women as a result of our differing bodies). If you're still not convinced after reading the book you could follow up on the sources cited. I didn't, as it's not my area of expertise, but go for it if you think you could follow up.

I'm not at all convinced of the 'thesis' presented in this book in this case. It looks like they sought a reason for a statistical anomaly & simply jumped to the wrong conclusion.

#😂

One of two things seem to be happening here:

1. Trolling
2. A poster who's too out-of-their-depth to realise how (comically) ignorant they sound.

I've done my bit, so am bowing out now: if 1), above, is the case, then continuing would be entertaining for us both, OK - but if 2) is the case, I'd feel a bit guilty.

I usually hate that patronising using of "Bless!" but it really does seem somewhat apt here.

“The more you know, the more you realize you don't know”
“Awareness of ignorance is the beginning of wisdom.”

And...

"I don't know anything about this area, but that just seems logical to me."

Agree, as always it appears with @SerafinasGoose but I'd add that our resident male entitled person on this thread demonstrates part of the problem - even when we ask for things to be fixed or changed or even just THOUGHT about, we are told:

• we are being difficult - why aren't we more grateful that we can even access these things and instead complain that they're not quite right?
• That it's just the way it is - how can they solve for these insurmountable things that just happened to suit men for no apparent reason!?
• That the solution is too difficult - often because of our pesky bodies that are shaped wrong and have all these weird hormones.

And when women try to enter these conversations and these design led initiatives, there are so many barriers - the dominance of men in STEM, for example.

"Go and invent your own solutions" I hear you cry? Aaah, but where will I get the investment to do this from? Statisically, we know that male entrepreneurs and inventors get the bulk of investment funds and that female entrepeneurs and inventors are turned down consistently more often. we even know that if a women pretends to be a man while seeking investors, she has more luck.... until they discover the truth.

Agreed. But it seems strange to complain about dimensions whilst relying on men to make these things.

I also manage to get through life without feeling inconvenienced by a jam jar lid. Single women aren't knocking the doors of neighbours to reach for the crisps in the top cupboard.

The bigger issues (to me) are around women's safety. I saw an article that Leeds have set up a female only taxi cab firm, these are positive steps IMO.

Women's bodies are not as robust, that is a biological fact. I'm also pretty sure crash test dummies are designed to replicate men, women and children.

Well not really, you have just gone of an a tangent, but hey ho.

Women's bodies are not as robust, that is a biological fact. I'm also pretty sure crash test dummies are designed to replicate men, women and children.

Only very recently ...that's what all the research above is saying. Traditionally cars have been designed with the male body in mind.

Except that I have been telling anyone who will listen that when I win the lottery, I plan to have get an entirely new kitchen that will cost me an absolute fortune. Why will it cost me a fortune?

Becuase I will want:
The counters to all be about 1-2 inches lower than they are currently. Why? Because I always have to hold my arms up that little bit too high when cooking, chopping, mixing etc. This will require custom made cupboards throughout.

I want all the higher cupboards to reach all the way to the ceiling? Why? Because inevitably, it is me who thihnks about deep cleaning and spring cleaning in this house because of socialisation etc, and so who is the person who has to get up there to clean abov eall those cupboards that are just left there? That would be me. This will require custom made cupboards for all my upper cabinets too.

Within those new very tall cupboards, I won't be able to reach the traditional top shelf (which, incidentally, is why I assume that's usually the top shelf and it wasn't created as standard for kitchen cupboards to go all the way to the ceiling - men wouldn't be able to reach those higher shelves, after all). So I have to consider what to do with them. Some will simply be fakes. Some will have to have some kind of mechanism that allows me to pull the inner shelf out and down so that I can reach it. You guessed it, that's a custom job and will cost a great deal of money.

On the other hand, my existing kitchen, iinstalled 10 years ago, was NOT a hugely expensive job because we bought modern, standard sized counters and cupboards and units and then had them installed.

And please please please don't tell me that if more people wanted what I want, they'd build and create these and they'd become standard. They won't. Because the very act of making this change is HUGE. Google something like, "standard depth of kitchen counters" or something and you'll see that we are dealing with long-established standards that have lasted for so long and are so entrenched that changing these would be a massive massive job.

I'm also pretty sure crash test dummies are designed to replicate men, women and children.

In fact, this is categorically not true.

I believe that there have been moves to include female sized crash test dummies which is a step in the right direction, but it's very recent, and it's not law, and it's certainly not being done as standard.

In addition, as I understand it, when it IS being done is being done inconsistently - eg creating a dummy that is just a small man's dummy vs one that actually reflects a woman's body which is a different shape and has different risk factors.

Not at all. The first crash test dummies were actually cadavers.

How tall are you!? Well yes a bespoke kitchen will cost more. I'm planning on getting one myself next year.

So the solution is to standardise kitchens to accommodate the minority?