I hate anti-vaxxers

[An89]

How can anyone in this day and age be an anti-vaxxer? London and West mids currently suffering from a meassls outbreak. DS is under 1 so cannot yet have vaccine, I know of someone whose 10momth old contracted measels as they were too young for vaccine.
Ridiculous that reckless and tardy parents are putting all our children at risk. Actually terrible.

Lots of schools do ban nuts.

@cakeorwine

"How do you keep your child safe from measles?

How does someone who is pregnant keep themselves safe from someone with rubella?"

I think you are missing the point - @AnxiousOCDMum point is on the rationale of vaccination of one's self for little benefit to yourself but providing a benefit for others.

Whereas getting your child vaccinated against measles provides a massive benefit to the child as well as a secondary benefit to others.

Getting your child vaccinated against rubella provides a massive benefit to the unborn child but little benefit to others.

Conversely the covid vaccination of children provided a low benefit to the child (they were in a very low risk category) but was argued for in order to stop the spread of COVID to wider society. However given that the COVID vaccine didn't prevent transmission (but just reduced the severity of the illness) then the COVID vaccination of children with no serious health issues was stopped.

The point is that if you believe that people should be vaccinated for the benefit of others rather than the benefit to individuals then yes it would be logical to ban all nuts. Indeed this already happens on flights or school cakes for example, where nuts are banned.

I thought with the covid vaccine, it benefitted children in their own right. There was also a wider benefit to other children and adults as it reduced transmission. There is some evidence that it reduces the risk of long covid too.

It doesn't matter if everyone vaccinated their children there's a good chance your child can still get sick. COVID vaccine proved that people were still getting sick even after having the vaccine. The vaccine helps to minimise the illness but no vaccine can prevent your child from ever catching mumps or measles.

Covid vaccines are an entirely different matter to measles vaccines, to all the vaccines against illnesses that were once childhood killers - and still are, in under-vaccinated countries such as Somaliaa*.

Breakthrough infections’ – where people get infected despite having been fully vaccinated – can occur.

No shit, Sherlock. So shall we just not bother with the intrusiveness of DBS checks and the inconvenience of safeguarding protocols, because vulnerable people still get harmed anyway? Does harm reduction not matter?

@Aparecium

"Covid vaccines are an entirely different matter to measles vaccines, to all the vaccines against illnesses that were once childhood killers - and still are, in under-vaccinated countries such as Somaliaa*. "

I completely agree and also think that the COVID vaccine roll out to people that tbh didn't really need it, is what is now causing a push back against essential vaccinations for example measles.

As you point out the COVID vaccines are entirely different to measles vaccines. Measles can and still does kill significant numbers of children whereas Covid killed relatively few children in comparison to say the over 80s.

"Hate" is perhaps a bit strong. But, nevertheless, I do think it important to point out to those ignorant selfish people who avoid recommended vaccines for themselves and/or their children that, yes, while they have - and should have - the right to do so, they are nevertheless doing wrong in that their actions and omissions are likely to hurt others (amongst whom, not least, their own children).

Anti-vaxxers, that is, are immoral, bad people. Ignorance is no excuse for such selfishness. Nor is the plain stupidity they often manifest in vapid attempts at self-justification (such as in some of this thread for example).

We have to live with bad people amongst us, sadly. Murderers, rapists, thieves, racists, misogynists ... and anti-vaxxers. OK, some are worse than others. They're all immoral though.

This needs saying, even if "hate" overdoes matters.

Not true. As I posted earlier, my fully-immunised dc caught mumps in a preventable mini-epidemic. I also know a teenager who had measles as a healthy 6yp, and became T1 diabetic 6 weeks later. He, too, was fully immunised.

https://www.nhs.uk/vaccinations/mmr-vaccine/#:~:text=How%20well%20the%20MMR%20vaccine,will%20be%20protected%20against%20mumps

How well the MMR vaccine works
Protection starts within 2 weeks of having the MMR vaccine.

After 2 doses:

around 99% of people will be protected against measles and rubella
around 88% of people will be protected against mumps
If you get mumps after being vaccinated, the symptoms will usually be much milder.

immunisations are not 100% effective and your child was unfortunate to catch mumps but it could have been a lot worse if you had not immunised your child.

Not all children can be immunised because of allergic reactions or some parents choose not to for whatever reason or can't immunise because of lack of vaccines in 3rd world countries.

True but they’re also vaccinated as per peoples wish for herd immunity. By this logic, all peanuts should be destroyed.

School, not cafes, restaurants, shops. Your child can be in the park and the child next to them may have just eaten a bag of peanuts. This is a risk to the child with the nut allergy. To keep these children safe, those with a proven fatal nut allergy, all nuts should be destroyed and banned worldwide to protect them.

^ this is the same logic the majority of this entire thread wants to apply. Except vaccines also carry a (small) risk of dangerous side effects, whereas not eating nuts will only minimise ones pleasure. You can’t have it both ways.

It does although the benefits are a bit more questionable in adolescent boys and young men. Otherwise the benefits of Covid vaccination outweigh the risks in all age groups.

The reason the JCVI gave for not recommending it was it wasn’t cost effective to administer on a population level. I suspect that’s a decision that will get looked at in an inquiry at some point in the future.

I’d still like one of the non-vaccinating posters to explain why the incidence of measles is increasing, and why this doesn’t concern them.

Partially due to people not vaccinating as well as the vaccine protection not being 100% and the fact that viruses mutate and new strains emerge that won’t be covered by the vaccine.

For me it’s a matter that the actual vaccine concerns me as much as the virus given our own experience. For other people it may be different.

@AnxiousOCDMum I see you didn't read the link I provided you. 🙄 Here's some screenshots.

At least this thread has reminded me I needed to book the appointment for DS's 1 year immunisations.

Here's some more screenshots.

My DS has a cow's milk protein allergy. I still drink milk and eat dairy, while trying to find alternatives he can eat. (Vegan cheese is disgusting.)

I have looked at this data on my own before and did the maths myself but since you went through the trouble of screenshotting it and posting it, I’ll share what I found.

The percentage of total deaths in 1940 was
0.2093%.

Please bare in mind this was 1940.

All this data did then (and still does now) is confirm that the MMR wasn’t a risk I wanted to take.

Oh and just to add, the data in 1940 says there were 409,522 reported cases. The estimated population of children in the UK in 1940 was 8-10 million meaning the infection rate was actually much higher and actual case fatality rate (CFR) - the true percentage of infected people who died - would be lower than what we can calculate from the reported data.

But it is not just about death, measles and mumps can affect long term ie blindness and deafness, diabetes is a known consequence of mumps.
Then there is the immune amnnesia(orr the detox and you were so ignorant to call it) Children are 3 times (i think that is the figure i read) likely to die in the 3 years following measles.
My son's friend had a stroke at 6 following Chicken Pox, 50% of all childhood stokes are within months of Chicken Pox. He was paralized down his left side and had to learn to walk and talk again.

That’s really sad and I hope he’s okay now. Respectfully, we’re not talking about chickenpox, because up until recently the vaccine hasn’t even been available.

I am just breaking down the data the PP shared. As I said, this data formed part of the research I did to help me decide to stop vaccines for now and not to give my kids the MMR (considering one of my sons was vaccine injured).

Ps. Childhood diabetes is on the rise despite MMR.

I

I suggest that there is a strong argument for compulsory vaccination of children unless medically contra indicated

LOL @AnxiousOCDMum the comment below is just absolutely incredulous..

'Given that peanuts are deadly allergic to some, those who believe everyone should vaccinate themselves to protect those vulnerable absolutely should advocate for all peanuts to be banned - what compelling reason would there to be to not ban peanuts? Is a bag of peanuts worth a life? And what next - eggs, dairy, sesame'

I can say I have honestly never been more shocked at how dense ones comments can be. Peanut allergies are awful and I empathise with you...however PEANUT ALLERGIES are NOT CONTAGIOUS, MEASELS Is. face palm

Yes Diabetes type 1 and DKA inccreased as a consequence of COVID!

Before that actually. Look at the data.

Measles = 0.2093% death rate in 1940 based on recorded infections.

Better estimate based on 5 million population of children in 1940 = 0.017%

I’ve said all I’ve needed to say on this thread.