I hate anti-vaxxers

[An89]

How can anyone in this day and age be an anti-vaxxer? London and West mids currently suffering from a meassls outbreak. DS is under 1 so cannot yet have vaccine, I know of someone whose 10momth old contracted measels as they were too young for vaccine.
Ridiculous that reckless and tardy parents are putting all our children at risk. Actually terrible.

@RafaistheKingofClay what a crock of shit you are sprouting.

Happy to say I am wrong if you can produce peer reviewed evidence and data that proves your 'theory'

I think people who decide not to immunise their DC, should not get access to nurseries, schools, libraries, hospitals etc but should also pay higher tax as there is a fiscal element to their stupid decisions.
They put pressure on the NHS plus the people infected may need long term support.

I'm a dr. Pretty much all the staff at my hospital (so thousands of people) had COVID vaccinations, and most of them had flu vaccine as well, as that's always been a thing in the NHS for decades. No staff member suffered any complications, although when the first COVID vaccinations came out, there were a few people who seemed to develop fever and all over body aches and feeling terrible for 24hrs afterwards, but this wasn't COVID. None of my colleagues have flu every year. I've met people who claim to have flu when they just have a rotten cold, but there are loads of other respiratory viruses that make people ill.

"Plus why are vaccines the only drugs we cannot sue manufacturers for if they go wrong or if there is negligence?"

You are completely wrong on this point.

The spread of covid has already shown that there is absolutely not the control measures in place to stop a pandemic before it kills millions of people, and Covid was a walk in the park compared to the Spanish flu. You keep blathering on about sanitation measures - I’m not sure you know what that means. The developed world has had electricity and running water and sewage systems for over 100 years. The importance of hand hygiene was discovered in the 19th century. None of these are new ideas and people have continued to die en masse since their introduction. To definitely prevent the transmission of a virus, you would need to wash your hands every single time they came into contact with ANYTHING. Please do tell me how you feel it’s practical to introduce that in modern society.

Ebola has a death rate of 50% to 90%. There is currently no cure. It’s being kept at bay by the fact that outbreaks sp far have been in rural and impoverished areas so there’s little travel to and from affected regions. If that does get out, we will likely see a vaccine before a cure. Are you telling me that you’d prefer your children die writhing in pain and bleeding from their eyes, ears and mouths as the virus dissolves their organs like acid rather than protect them from it with the vaccine? Let me repeat - UP TO NINETY PERCENT FATALITIES.

. It really bloody annoys me reading that trope above. . " If your kid was dead / damaged from measles)" stating that it's easily preventable.

How the hell do you imagine my parents would feel if they kept being told they could've prevented the measles that left me partially deaf? ?

All parents screw up; some in big ways and some in little ways. It's a shame that they have to carry guilt, but maybe they would simply feel like they should speak out in anti vax groups to try to prevent others making the same mistake.

Being vaccinated does carry a risk of reaction to the vaccines.with some potentially rare bur serious consequences.

Being unvaccinated - and having a population that is also unvaccinated - carries a risk of disease with serious consequences.The risk might well be greater to people in certain medical groups or ages.

Either way, there's a risk - but the risk from being unvaccinated is normally much greater than the risk from being vaccinated.

And as harsh as it sounds, someone who did get iseriously ill from vaccine damage would probably have been much much more likely to have got seriously ill or even die if they had been unvaccinated and then developed a disease.

You mean "measles and immune amnesia"

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20211112-the-people-with-immune-amnesia

Enter "immune amnesia", a mysterious phenomenon that's been with us for millennia, though it was only discovered in 2012. Essentially, when you're infected with measles, your immune system abruptly forgets every pathogen it's ever encountered before – every cold, every bout of flu, every exposure to bacteria or viruses in the environment, every vaccination. The loss is near-total and permanent. Once the measles infection is over, current evidence suggests that your body has to re-learn what's good and what's bad almost from scratch.

I never knew that.

That's interesting research about "measles amnesia" - essentially the measles virus affects the memory cells of the immune system - but it does produce immunity to measles afterwards.

However, you are at much more increased risk of developing other diseases as your immunity has been wiped out

"Scientists have known for decades that even after they recover, children who have been infected with measles are significantly more likely to fall ill and die from other causes. In fact, a study from 1995 found that vaccinating against the virus reduces the overall likelihood of death by between 30% and 86% in the years afterwards."

I was told of 2 cases involving rubella in pregnancy with not great outcomes sadly, but I can also see how rubella is a mild illness in itself and it would be better to allow everyone to catch it and develop naturally immunity.

Why do you think the rubella vaccine was developed in the first place? Because allowing everyone to catch it and develop naturally immunity was not working! Babies were born with preventable congenital defects because their mothers contracted rubella during pregnancy.

I was immunised against rubella at secondary school, even though I had already had it. But immunising just girls at 13 was still harming unborn babies as many girls slipped through the net, and the virus still spread among boys, exposing these unvaccinated women. Which is why all children are now immunised against rubella well before puberty.

So you haven't got any sources to support what you are saying; no credible ones anyway. And you will never convince me against vaccination. Nobody is claiming that vaccination is absolutely 100% risk free (what in life is?), just that for the vast majority of people the risks of serious side effects are tiny and far outweighed by the risks of contracting the diseases themselves.

You state that your older family members caught these diseases without complications, as an argument that they were not serious - the same can be stated about vaccination, that in the majority of cases there are no complications. Why do you think it is OK to run one risk but not the other, statistically far smaller, risk?

Then you go on to state that 2 cases of rubella in pregnancy had 'not very good outcomes sadly', yet your answer is to allow everyone to catch it despite the fact that this would put other pregnant womens' babies at risk?!! You say that we are all trying to do our best and that 'no mother wants harm to come to their child' yet you advocate directly putting other mothers' children at risk by letting rubella do its worst?

You have your personal and family experience, I have my own. I am old enough to have been a child in the 1960s when many of the vaccinations were being rolled out. One thing that is striking is that of my remaining early childhood memories, many of them are about the vaccines and immunisations I & my siblings, cousins & friends had as children, what i was told about them, what they were for, having the vaccinations themselves. It must have been talked about a lot by the adults around us, for me to pick up on it the way I did. That is probably very revealing in itself about how seriously they were taken at the time & what a boon they were.

Ebola is a terrible disease @TaggieO . Yes I wonder how many people would refuse an Ebola vaccine , should one become available. Few enough I'd imagine. Even if RFKjr went there to spread misinformation as he did in Samoa.

People seem more comfortable with treatment, especially oral , eg with antibiotics, than with vaccines? But then we don't like it when the GP says ' exercise more and eat a bit less , you'll be grand ' . We'd rather she prescribed some tablet perhaps.

@TaggieO I never claimed to be anti-vax fyi, I have explained why I have ceased vaccinations for now.

For the illnesses we routinely vaccinate against, I don’t feel it’s a risk worth taking.

If a new deadlier disease emerged and became rampant, then there’s a chance I would reconsider.

For what it’s worth, I’m also one of those people who would rather excercise more, eat well etc. I have 3 kids - thankfully 1 has had calpol once, 2 have had antibiotics once each - eldest is 13. We really only go to the doctors if the situation really warrants it.

But my parents didn't screw up as you put it..This is exactly the point. They did get me vaccinated. But as you've proved then people automatically jump to " kid has measles , parents didn't get them vaccinated"

Ok, that wasn't clear. It's rare to get measlea after vaccination and the vast majority of cases are much milder, so your case is unfortunate and very unusual. The majority of people wouldn't ask why you have partial deafness. If it's mentioned, then it is possible to say "measles despite vacicnation" instead of "measles" and I'm not sure why you wouldn't?

I was told of 2 cases involving rubella in pregnancy with not great outcomes sadly, but I can also see how rubella is a mild illness in itself and it would be better to allow everyone to catch it and develop naturally immunity.

I think that is the most stupid thing I have ever read. I was born before the rubella vaccine.

My mother's cousin had a little girl who was ill, when she took her to the doctor he diagnosed 'German measles' i.e. rubella.

My mother's cousin burst in to tears and the Dr told her not to be so dramatic, it's a mild illness. She wasn't crying for her daughter who was crying for my mother who was pregnant with me and who had spent the day before with the little girl sitting on her knee.

My mother had to have gamma globulin injections. She had no way of knowing whether I would be healthy or not as there wasn't ultrasound scanning.

Can you imagine carrying a baby for 7 more months not knowing whether it will be healthy or disabled?

In some ways my mother was lucky in that she found out she had been exposed, but a lot of women were not.

But it does happen( neither of my brothers caught from me) but you shouldn't be having to make a point of saying " despite vaccination" to get the baying mob off your back.

Maybe other people people need to think before jumping to conclusions

Quite so, @sashh. The first rubella vaccine was licenced in 1969, by the time I was a teen thankfully girls were all being vaccinated. But when I was in primary, before the vaccine, people would hold ‘German measles parties’ to try to expose kids to it. Obviously that was all people could do then but it was very hit and miss, clearly not a methodology that could be relied on. Anyone blathering about ‘allowing everyone’ to catch it and develop natural immunity is simply woefully ignorant, however much ‘research’ they may claim to have done.

I wonder if the anti vax would still be anti vax if their child had a gene mutation that could save their child’s life with a gene therapy vaccination of a virus and gene therapy?

given a choice of go home with your baby but they will die before they reach 2 years old or they can have these vax and live

You have no qualifications to make those determinations though because you don’t have medical training. You say that 3 children, the oldest of whom is 13 have only ever had medicine once each, and don’t need doctors? That’s very interesting because upthread you were claiming they were vaccine injured and diagnosed as such by doctors. So which one are you lying about? If your 3 children’s sum total of medicine is 1 dose of Calpol and 2 doses of antibiotics collectively throughout their whole lives and they are tweens, we can be fairly certain that you’ve just left them unmedicated through pain and discomfort. That’s not something to boast about.

It's vastly more common to get permanent deafness from measles when someone is unvaccinated than when they are vaccinated only 3% even get a mild case of measles who have been vaccinated. You simply can't prevent people from making an assumption based on the 99.999% likely scenario unfortunately. If you're worried about people thinking they were idiotic, then you add "despite vaccination". Or you decide you don't care.

But it does happen( neither of my brothers caught from me) but you shouldn't be having to make a point of saying " despite vaccination" to get the baying mob off your back.

Maybe other people people need to think before jumping to conclusions

I don't see why anyone would have an issue saying "despite being vaccinated she's got measles".

I've had to do that numerous times with my youngest DD as her condition means she just gets no immunity from things (she's had chicken pox four times for example). Other parents I know from the support group do the same - in fact you get used to it because you have to be clear about it in medical settings to make sure they don't put things she's been vaccinated for lower on the list of "wtf is going on with her" list.

I also happily say "despite being vaccinated" as it shows people that vulnerable kids are still vulnerable no matter what we do and herd immunity is so important for them.

You’re making a hell of a lot of assumptions.

You can believe I’ve left my children in pain and discomfort if you wish, I know the truth.

I also know the truth about what injury my son sustained from a vaccine and I also know this was confirmed by our GP.

And the wonderful thing is, I don’t need medical training to make the determinations I see fit. Thankfully, this country allows parents to choose and I have made an informed decision along with my husband.

My children have navigated many normal childhood illnesses with lots of love and care, we take time off to be with them and rest - you’d be amazed at how quickly children bounce back letting fevers do their jobs ans not plying them with calpol so they can get back to school and we can get back to work. We also work very hard to be able to afford to give them as much of a healthy lifestyle as possible. I am grateful and pray, and will continue to pray, that they stay healthy and thriving, God willing. I am hopeful that with the right choices my sons injury will resolve in time. I am not willing to take a risk to cause more harm or injure my other children.

You seem very hateful and full of resentment - shame there’s no vaccine for that, but a healthy life style can do wonders for general mood.

This will be my last post on this thread as it’s just silly to keep explaining myself.

Wishing you all well 🙏🏽✌🏽

Now!!! Back in the days of single jabs it was a 93% protection rate. Meaning 7 out of every 100 kids got it. Fortunately most people were aware then it wasn't foolproof and consequently less judgemental

But you stated your parents got you vaccinated, so they had the best of intentions and tried. Sometimes with the best will in the world things go wrong. My point was that if a parent DELIBERATELY doesn’t vaccinate a child that then goes on to develop a disease that has devastating consequences then that’s obviously a situation that is completely different from yours, so I think you were being a little harsh with your reply.

sorry, quoted wrong person. This is meant for @Fundayout2025