I hate anti-vaxxers

[An89]

How can anyone in this day and age be an anti-vaxxer? London and West mids currently suffering from a meassls outbreak. DS is under 1 so cannot yet have vaccine, I know of someone whose 10momth old contracted measels as they were too young for vaccine.
Ridiculous that reckless and tardy parents are putting all our children at risk. Actually terrible.

The "my body, my choice" argument sums up so much that is wrong with our society at the moment. I cringe inwardly when anyone says this. Such a profoundly selfish and stupid way to look at the world. I'm alright, Jack, and I don't give a tinker's what happens to others' kids as long as I can live in my ill-informed bubble while convincing myself I'm among the enlightened.

It's not just your body. It's your children's bodies, and the bodies of everyone else who comes into contact with you, including people who are sick or elderly or immune compromised.

As a PP pointed out upthread, it's a profoundly decadent and spoiled way to look at the world. People who've lived through a period of peak health security and lost the memory of how terrifying childhood illness can be, choosing to live in ignorance.

I don't hate all antivaxxers: I accept that there are some people who are ill educated or with below average intellectual capacity and some with needle phobias and some who genuinely don't understand that the link between MMR and autism has been robustly debunked. It's not their fault and they need to be supported in learning to understand this better. Maybe the government didn't help matters during the COVID pandemic through a lack of transparancy. The ascendancy of RFK and his cronies in the US has turbo-charged the sense of entitlement that the antivax lobby has and that's a problem.

But the bottom line is we need to take a much tougher line on people who withhold life-saving vaccines from their children which impact herd immunity. We don't, as a society, have the luxury of indulging this nonsense.

So firstly I think it's important to define the difference between a vaccine and a jab. Polio,mumps, measles etc are all vaccines in that they mimic the virus with a deactivated or harmless version that the body then uses to build up a life long protection. Whereas something like flu or covid are jabs in that they don't prevent you catching the disease but reduce its severity and also have to be updated and retaken every year.

Secondly there are two arguments for vaccines/ jabs:

1. to protect and give health benefit to the individual taking the vaccine/ jabs, for example the polio vaccine for babies.
2. to protect and give health benefits to the wider society from the individual taking the vaccine / jabs.

Now most of the time 1 and 2 are the same for example the polio vaccine stops the individual from dying but also prevents the spread across society.

However sometimes they are not the same, for example not making the chickenpox vaccine available on the NHS means that some individuals may suffer badly from the virus (and a small number die) but it does mean that the chickenpox virus is still in circulation meaning that there are less severe reactions from older people to shingles

Or more recently people were giving their children COVID jabs when there was minimal risk to the child from dying from COVID but the original idea was to create "herd immunity " and to "eradicate" COVID. However this proved to be a false argument in that the COVID jab doesn't prevent transmission, it also doesn't offer life long protection, it only reduced the severity which in children was minimal anyway.

As a result of this "false promise " and societal pressure to have the COVID jabs, I think that unfortunately many people have lost confidence in "science " are now irrationally pushing back against all vaccines especially for children. This will tragically lead to deaths and life long health consequences from preventable diseases such as mumps or measles or polio etc.

Tragically I believe that more lives will be lost and more serious illnesses caused by the policies and mass hysteria reaction to Covid than would ever been caused by simply letting it spread, just like they did with the 1957 -58 Asian flu pandemic or the 1968 Hong Kong flu pandemic.

I am of an age that these vaccines were not available when I was a child. I remember having measels, it was hideous I was extremely ill and have suffered permanent damage to my ears, a friend of mine has her sight affected. I am glad the vaccine was available for my DC's and they didn't have to go through what I did.

YANBU.

I think a lot of people have no idea how serious measles can be, even fatal in very young children. I'm old and the vaccine wasn't developed when I was a toddler. I came very close to being hospitalised with measles, and was so ill that the GP was visiting twice a day to check on me. I can still remember my DM crying with relief when I finally felt well enough to ask for something to eat. And I was bloody ill with mumps in my early teens.

If opposition to vaccines had been a thing decades ago, smallpox would never have been eradicated and polio would still be commonplace, instead of down to single figures and only in Afghanistan/Pakistan.

Vaccines have made a massive contribution to health and life expectancy, and in the case of polio, prevented crippling disabilities.

Absolutely. Decades of evidence, showing have safe and effective vaccinations against common childhood diseases are.

We've become complacent. People with elderly parents will know how miraculous they were considered to be when first rolled out. They still are.

The tough line is what is creating the resistance

The measles one isn’t antivaxxers

I’m not sure about the argument for not allowing children who haven’t had their vaccines into school/ nursery, imagine those poor children, being raised and schooled by parents who believe in all the anti-vax nonsense!

I’m not an anti-vaxxer but I also won’t just blindly take any vaccine without weighing things up and doing my research. The whole scandal over the AstraZeneca Covid vaccine is a perfect example of why people should be doing this - a young relative, highly unlikely to ever be severely effected by Covid ended up on a high dependency ward days after having it due to the now known blood clot side effect. Her blood was so thickened that they struggled to even get a sample. Was it really worth risking her life for?

DD for example didn’t have the HPV vaccine in secondary school as it only protects against a few out of hundreds of strains yet has documented side effects like Guillan-Barre syndrome. The risk outweighed the benefit in my eyes.

For the record - yes, she was fully vaccinated as a baby/toddler. I’d never dream of leaving my child susceptible to diseases like measles or meningitis.

The HPV vaccine has already been proven to be incredibly effective.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cv2x2en4lpro.amp

I don't understand doing your own research. I am not qualified to do that, so I take advice from those who are.

They are if they affect other people, particularly children. Unvaxxed children can't be enrolled in school in some countries, so the impact on other children is much less. That sounds sensible to me.

@BlueJuniper94

The tough line is what is creating the resistance

Well, tough. Sometimes regressive health behaviours need to be eradicated by mandate and the state needs to enforce this.

If we hadn't legislated, people would still be smoking in bars and restaurants, driving over the drink driving limit and without seat-belts. Domestic violence within a marriage would still be legal.

Anti-vaxxers aren't the only people who have ever considered themselves a misunderstood majority who are being oppressed by the world. I remember lots of self-indulgent hand-wringing about people's right to smoke etc.

The government has to do a decent job in explaining why this is necessary, for sure and it fumbled this during COVID. But vaccine deniers/refusers are a threat to the whole of society.

Untrue. There are anti vaxxers in my life. Some I hate for it, others I’m trying to educate out of it for the sake of their children.

That poster wouldn't care. She has said that she only cares about her own family.

They're proud of it too! Imagine flaunting your ignorance and utter lack of care and empathy for anyone else's children but your own.

@Cappuccino5

I’m not an anti-vaxxer but I also won’t just blindly take any vaccine without weighing things up and doing my research.

What does "doing your research" entail?

Do you do a decades-long clinical trial involving thousands of subjects and publish peer-reviewed research on it before deciding to accept a vaccine? Or do you read stuff on YouTube.

With regards to the HPV vaccine, yes it only protects against some strains, but those are dangerous strains that can cause cancer. From what I remember, kids are given it in year 8/9 and many won’t fully appreciate the significance of it at that age, but that’s where I feel that a parent should strongly advise their 13/14 year olds to have it due to the possible consequences of not having it.

It is when your choices make others sick! 😡

Would you say the same to someone smoking in doors, especially around children? What about drunk driving or going out in public with an infectious disease?

These choices are absolutely all of our concern, as they put us all at risk. These reckless decisions remove other people's choices to be responsible.

Have you ever seen anyone try to be treated for vaccine injury, OP? I have, and the medical denial and gaslighting that goes on is truly incredible. It's no wonder there is so much suspicion and conspiracy when genuine cases of injury are so strenuously denied. (It was eventually admitted but it was a real fight to get there).

I'm not an anti vaxxer for the really serious diseases - the pros outweigh the cons on these. But I won't have the covid or flu vaccine.

People in real life do give a shit. Just that they feel more comfortable expressing their views anonymously online than in person face to face.

@1dayatatime I've read some nonsense in my time, but this takes the biscuit. Defining the difference between a vaccine and a jab? "Jab" being slang for an injection has no medical definition. None whatsoever. You can be vaccinated against some diseases, you can be inoculated against others. You can call either or both "jabs" if you like, but it has no medical meaning. Stop peddling nonsense.

It also demonstrates a lack of care and empathy for their own children, as they are at risk too. These selfish parents are protected, as they had the vaccine, but they will happily put their children at risk "out of concern".

Exactly none of us are. But those who are, are also bound by the incentive structures of their organisations that guarantee we don't hear the full truth. Profit trumps safety wherever they can get away with it.