For refusing to change a 6 year old?

[Bernie6678]

So I’m 20 years old, at uni and working as a TA. I want to be a KS2 teacher. This is my first year working with children, I have no past experience, no children of my own etc. Posting here to get opinions from mums.

Anyway I’ve recently been moved from the year 5 classroom (which I loved) to year 1 and there’s multiple children who wet themselves and one of them actually poos himself quite regularly. No SEN. I understand the odd accident but this is happening a few times a week…
I’ve said I don’t feel comfortable changing children as this isn’t in my contract or job description and I’ve had no intimate care training. (Personally for minimum wage I’d rather not be dealing with poo and changing children).
I also think when a child wets themselves at this age they should be capable of going and changing themselves. We have lots of spare clothes and baby wipes here.

I’ve refused so the teacher or another TA changes the children.

Apparently the teacher has now complained about me because she’s having to do it when her previous TA would do it no questions asked. Previous TA has now had to go off on sick leave.

AIBU? They’re 6 years old?!

It’s been discussed about 500 times throughout the thread that a medical condition or similar will trigger reasonable adjustments etc. That’s obviously a completely different topic.

As for the parents not being able to attend because they’re at work - that’s their problem, isn’t it? Toilet training (with all the usual caveats of SEN and disability) can happen long, long before school is on the horizon. Many kids are trained in a matter of weeks. Every parent knows when their child will be due to start school and can plan accordingly to ensure they can reliably toilet themselves (as well as do lots of other things).

The LA can absolutely provide learning materials to ensure access to education from home. Why does the state (via the school) need to pick up the pieces for parenting failures?

Bring the issue right back to the parent’s lap, they’ll be spurred into action when it affects them daily.

They aren't there. It doesn't matter who you think is ultimately responsible, or what you think they 'need to arrange', they aren't there.

Now what?

Your problem there is that all children have a right to full time education, not just the toilet trained one, so as soon as you exclude a child for something that is outside their control you are breaching that right. There is no need to "lose" a staff member if the school has staff who are specifically designated to deal with such incidents who are not part of the normal class staff.

Do schools have that staff member though? From what I’ve gathered on this thread, it’s TAs and other classroom support staff who are expected to do it.

I think some people in this thread are effectively saying that a child should be left - e.g. if parent not available.

And occasional accidents for 4,5 and 6 year olds are normal - children can be potty trained for years and still have accidents. I had an accident at school decades ago because I was shy to ask to go.

I agree if it's happening regularly then it needs investigating as there may be a medical issue.

If it's much more common than years ago (is there data or evidence about this?) then it is a problem that needs addressed but I don't think "it's all lazy parenting" is helpful analysis.

Nothing to do with teachers as OP is not one. Schools should generally employ a TA or welfare person specifically for this type of responsibility.

Not in my experience.

Even with my son who has an EHCP and an intimate care plan. The two named on his intimate care plan to change him are TA's.

that’s their problem, isn’t it?

Actually, it's the child's problem. While you strop about the parents' failings, the child needs to be changed. And the school have a duty of care so, as egregious as you clearly feel it is, the school staff MUST deal with it. To do anything else is neglect and they, not the parents, will be rightly held legally accountable.

The LA can absolutely provide learning materials to ensure access to education from home.

LAs won’t fund provision under section 19 of the Education Act 1996 or section 61 of the Children and Families Act 2014 just because of toileting needs. LAs do anything and everything to avoid paying for such provision. It would also cost significantly more to educate a child otherwise than in school because sending learning materials home isn’t sufficient.

You have a very odd idea of what a former primary school headteacher is likely to have been paid. Even now a new head will be on £56K, whilst the average is around £72K.

To be fair, I would rather my children were taught by the teacher, not the TA, as the name implies the TA is the assistant, not the teacher.
I suppose if a teacher can change a child, as her assistant so can you

I was a TA with 10 years experience. I was often left to teach a class when they couldn’t find cover, or there was an incident or meeting.

What do you think we did? Send the kids home or leave me a mere low life TA with a class of 30 6 years olds to teach them finger spaces or how to build lego?

We clearly, in your eyes we are only good enough to clean up shit.

YOU are the reason so many TAs leave the profession.

Jesus Christ. I’ve said more than once already that they do need to be changed. I haven’t seen anyone suggest that they’re left caked in their own shit until someone shows up from home.

No school would leave a child soiled, you don't need data to see the reality. It's widespread news that children are turning up to primary school in nappies and you don't have to google much. Not toilet training is neglect again assuming the child doesn't have any issues which should be documented

No, they can go to the toilet and sort themselves out with someone providing clean clothes and a bag to put dirty clothes in. If they can’t do this themselves due to a disability, then they need a care plan with a specifically named person to help them. My DS could pull his pants up and down and wipe his own bum properly when he was two, so a child without any obvious SEND not being able to do it at six is ridiculous.

That isn't what OP has said. She said she was not aware of SEN. That certainly does not mean definitively that the child has no SEN.

Only on this site would faux outraged bored twerps pretend that it's normal or acceptable to force a minimum wage employee with no training to clean up shitty, piss covered arses of any age.

Of course you are 100 percent not being unreasonable. If the cleaner, cook and head of the school are not expected to do it, neither are you. The end. It is NOT YOUR JOB as a teacher aide to clean up shit and piss, absolutely NOT. Unless you have opted in and agreed to that.

An aside, I worked as a TA between 2006-2012 and was in prep through to year 3 mostly and not once ever was I asked to wipe a child's shitty or piss covered arse or help them change out of shitty or piss covered clothes. I did clean up vomit occasionally using the special sand stuff they gave us and gloves and a mask.

You have to OPT IN to wiping up piss and shit from people's arses, it is NEVER an expected role no matter what job you are in and is ALWAYS opt in, covered by your role and with training and safeguarding in place including use of PPE.

Ignore the entitled whiners and downright liars on this thread and stand your ground.

Just stop with the excuses

Not including them, as there is no legal requirement for them to come into school on demand, and it's highly unlikely you could prove this was down to lack of training rather than other needs the child may have.

But how do you identify the SEN and disability when these things are have year's long waiting lists?

My child has no diagnoses but does have some issues with using the toilet which are sensory issues. And there are other sensory things he struggles with. But it's hard to prove and not very extreme. Luckily he's never ever had a poo accident because he holds it in until he's home. But it does depress me that people are so quick to rush to judge.

This is the schools responsibility to deal with. As you say it isn’t in a TA standard job description to change children, so you don’t have to do it.
unless you are a Clinical Psychologist and have done a full Neurodevelopmental Assessment though, you can’t know if they have SEN. Plus, unless you’re a Gastro expert and have scanned or xray’d the child you can’t know there isn’t a medical reason for it. It’s very common for GP’s to be useless at treating this issue and refuse to refer to experts to get it dealt with. So it may be the poo parents are doing there best.
The posters saying school should ring the parents each time are very wrong. Legally the school have a responsibility to provide for the child’s needs and one of those needs is helping them change. If they need to employ staff specifically for that role then they need to apply to the LA for the funding to do that.

What about childcare workers who have degrees? Should they cease to do the 'dirty work'? Regardless of the level of education, anyone working with children has to accept an element of childcare. It's not like this TA is assigned to change nappies all day, it's just to help a child under her care who had an accident. Likewise if a child sneezes snot all over her hand while shes crouched down to help them read, or vomited on during a PE class, or has a kid nosebleed all over her clothing while in assembly. No one likes cleaning these things up but it's part and parcel of working with kids.

Literally nothing else matters. It's not your job. It is not ANYBODY's job who has not agreed to it and been given training and with safeguarding in place.

End.

I think where resources are limited most parents would prefer to have the teacher assistant teaching, not cleaning soiled nappies. Very different skill set, and very different pool of applicants. Hint: not many good ones will apply for the job!

Just they they wouldn't do it themselves. And they can't be made to. And the parents should come in to do it...

You're right, no one's suggesting that at all.

But with childcare that is part of the job because you're dealing with very young children who are not toilet trained. Some of the posts on here are staggering! * *