For refusing to change a 6 year old?

[Bernie6678]

So I’m 20 years old, at uni and working as a TA. I want to be a KS2 teacher. This is my first year working with children, I have no past experience, no children of my own etc. Posting here to get opinions from mums.

Anyway I’ve recently been moved from the year 5 classroom (which I loved) to year 1 and there’s multiple children who wet themselves and one of them actually poos himself quite regularly. No SEN. I understand the odd accident but this is happening a few times a week…
I’ve said I don’t feel comfortable changing children as this isn’t in my contract or job description and I’ve had no intimate care training. (Personally for minimum wage I’d rather not be dealing with poo and changing children).
I also think when a child wets themselves at this age they should be capable of going and changing themselves. We have lots of spare clothes and baby wipes here.

I’ve refused so the teacher or another TA changes the children.

Apparently the teacher has now complained about me because she’s having to do it when her previous TA would do it no questions asked. Previous TA has now had to go off on sick leave.

AIBU? They’re 6 years old?!

Yep that's me. I've also won numerous send tribunals and have multiple upheld Local Government and Social Care Ombudsman complaints re my send children. Funny how we're not viewed as entitled at all once we move into independent complaints processes isn't it.... you know, the independent processes that uphold the law around the care and support our children ARE in fact legally entitled too in school.

Of course it's all about the welfare of the child, that's my point. It sounds like OP is suggesting that the school are not taking it seriously and are just being complacent. It is neglectful on the parents part assuming there are no underlying issues which OP did not mention and school for not referring through appropriate channels. Totally unfair on the child at the end of day again assuming there is nothing wrong which I am just going by what OP has written!

Reddit replies and comments seem much more reasonable.. compared to here!

https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueOffMyChest/comments/1ho570m/ifyourhealthyschoolagechildisstillin/

https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/1eun88l/interventionasoneinfourschoolstartersin/

https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/1hihw4i/schoolstellparentsifyourchildstillwears/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Wales/comments/1hif0qy/angerasschoolstellparentsifyourchildstill/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Wales/comments/1hwhsgm/unfairtocallparentsintoschooltochange/

AND before anyone says these threads are about UK & Wales!!

This. YABU, OP. I don’t think with this attitude you should be entrusted the care of small children.

He wouldn't be accepted to any special schools because he is capable of accessing a mainstream education.

The special schools in my area only accept children with either severe autism and/or global development delay. They are incapable of accessing mainstream education.

He has no learning disabilities or behavioural difficulties and other than his physical needs is your average 9 year old boy.

Including the parents who don't come in and:/or train appropriately?

Yes, as a teacher I am fully aware of the retention crisis.
I am also very aware of how much bodily fluid that isn’t mine, is wiped around the classroom and onto myself and other staff.
I don’t know where you think the ‘school nurse/medical people’ are waiting to come and clean the vomit/blood, but they certainly aren’t at my school!
It’s not negging, it’s honesty. If you can’t handle the gross things children do (I could have used some much worse examples) then teaching is not the right career path, and it’s easier to know that now, and look at alternatives, in my opinion.

Why on earth do you need the NHS etc to encourage basic common sense??!! And why on earth are you - or anyone else - paying attention to what nappy companies are saying? Of course they want kids to stay in nappies for longer - they make more money! Anyone who lacks the common sense to figure out the fact that they need to work on potty training well before a child attends school (between the ages of 2 and 3 seems to be the norm) likely lacks the common sense to have children in the first place. I shudder to thing what those poor children will have to deal with when they start bringing GCSE level maths homework home!!

I find it incredible that people are expecting hand-holding from the state with respect to basic aspects of child raising. As soon as a child is old enough to understand language and be able to use a potty they can be toilet trained (they can also be taught to indicate that they need to use the loo earlier than that of course - indeed it's pretty easy to see when a child needs to use the loo). People have been potty training their children for centuries - why on earth is it up to the NHS or any other social service to tell parents what they should already know?? There are loads of books, loads of online guidance, and the NHS already publishes information on potty training.

You make assumptions, apparently.

Read with pleasure..

I am speechless.
I worked for a few years as a kindergarden teacher with children aged 1.5 to 7 years old.
None of the children wore diapers, and all were trained to use the toilet when needed.
Children up to age 3 occasionally had accidents while napping during the day.
To prevent this, we would wake the child to use the toilet and then let them go back to sleep.

Oh, I understood that. I'm equally shocked, tbh. It is quite unbelievable.

There was an article in the TES about it that warned the government against making schools responsible for solving all of society's ills. But thats the way its going.

More generally, as for changing childen in schools, and meeting educational and medical needs, I wouldn't ask a TA to do anything I wasn't prepared to deal with myself. Except excessive snot because it makes me retch and its hard to support a child when you're trying not to he sick. I wouldn't refuse to clean up a child.

I was once told off by a previous HT for helping a child change after a wee accident because that wasn't what they paid me for but that was nearly 2 decades ago and things have changed since then.

The biggest issue facing schools in this respect is that, whilst the needs of children coming into mainstream school has increased hugely over recent years, the funding to schools has been cut year on year meaning we can't afford to pay for extra staff to help meet these increasing needs.

And EHCPs only set out the statutory entitlement of a child/obligation of a school to provide appropriate provision. It doesn't automatically provide funding for that. It has to be applied for separately and isn't guaranteed.

Nobody wants to do it but what’s the alternative? Not being allowed at school or sitting in a mess whilst parents are called.

If you can’t cope with it then perhaps reconsider your career. At the very least you should all be sharing the job and you should be taking your turn.

YANBU. I wouldn’t do it either. Unless there’s a medical reason, 6 year olds shouldn’t be messing themselves.

I dontbthink it matters if they are SEN of not
If any 6 year old, SEN or not, is pooing themselves, they are not ready for mainstream school.

Yeah, it would be the teachers problem if they found out that the new TA was outright refusing to pitch in, and was judgemental about the children.

I’m just curious really - why is he unable to tend to (or learn to tend to) his own bowel issue? You mention the absence of any LD/behaviour issues, so is that a hope for the future at all? That he’ll manage it himself in his later schooling years?

The alternative is that the parent sorts it out.

let me get it straight, you think a child should be left sat in their shit whilst their parent, who's say an hour commute away drives in? Not every parent is at home or 5 mins round the corner.

Plus most won't be actually wiping poo of them, as others said it's often the case they'll just be advising the child and nearby whilst they do it themselves. Actual intimate care would be rarer.

Denying a child of legal school age access to an education is a violation of that child's human rights.

Granting human rights only to non-disabled children is abhorrent.

With waiting lists for diagnosis of SEN conditions of around 2 years, and gateways to join those waiting lists often being inaccessible until age 3, and the parallel processes for getting an EHCP document also being at least 2 years, there are going to be a huge number of 3-5 yos whose SEN exist but are not yet documented.

Schools should teach children math, English, etc.—not change their dirty underwear. Simple.
We should be asking teachers why a child can’t read, write, or count—not why the child isn’t toilet trained.
It’s the parents’ responsibility to teach their child to use the toilet when needed.
Teachers can assist a child in going to the toilet if there’s a medical condition involved.
Otherwise, parents need to do their part—or reconsider having children.

So, you've avoided answering the question I asked. Nice.

FYI

Lots of untrained people in min wage jobs have to clean poo, vomit, blood, needles. Obviously cleaners, but also jobs like cinema usher, hospitality staff, pretty much anywhere the general public go. Sometimes things just happen, people get sick.

It’s ridiculous to suggest that disabled people shouldn’t access any public services because they might have an accident.

It’s true that if more children with additional needs and disabilities are being supported to access mainstream education that the teachers and support staff need the right funding, training, and staff levels to accommodate those needs. It’s absolutely not the fault of the child.

A six year old with no additional needs, including physical needs, is going to be capable of understanding toilet training and what they need to do even if they have parents who have not bothered to train them. I find it very unlikely that an average 6 year old would be untoilet trained due to parental neglect as children naturally take themselves off to wee and poo from as young as two even if they haven’t got the consistency yet.

Wow the UK AND Wales! Thank goodness you let us know wales is included

I teach 5 & 6 year olds (Northern Ireland P2) and although you are not being unreasonable, someone has to do it. As the adults we have to. I've been lucky this year and only one wee boy has wet himself on several occasions but the teacher next door and her TA has been dealing with a child who has been wetting herself and soiling herself multiple times a week. No diagnosis and parents are now having to pay private to try and get to the root of the problem. The child doesn't even tell anyone, just sits in it until someone notices. It's all very well saying call the parent but if they work and can't leave regularly or it takes them time to get there you've no choice. You can't leave the child sitting in their own mess. In school you have to deal with a multiple of jobs that aren't in the job description and without adequate training. It's sucks and is unfair and TA wages are rubbish but that unfortunately is the UK education system.