Unpleasant altercation - who was the most unreasonable?

[zerofeeling]

Took my dogs out today and was trying to park in a small space between two cars on a country lane. As I was inching back to fit into the space I heard a loud crunch 😖

The two men from the car behind had just set off on their walk, as I got out of my car one of them was heading back towards me shouting why did I try to park in such a small space. I said sorry and inspected the front of his car - couldn't see any damage at all, and apart from a tiny paint scuff nothing on my car. I said to him 'i can't see any damage, it doesn't look like I hit you'
Man just glanced over at his car then asked me for my details, I asked is that necessary and said again there's no damage. He said that's not the point you have to give your details if you've been in a collision. He was much taller than me and sort of fronting up to me repeating that he wanted my details and me refusing, saying I don't think it was a collision, I think I might have hit something underneath my car. (For info my Mum and a friend have both been scammed on their insurance by people who claimed all kinds of things after very minor prangs)

Then he took an ID wallet out of his pocket and flipped it open to show a photo and badge and said he's Police. I couldn't tell if it was genuine or not. He held his phone up and said he's filming me refusing to comply with the law.
By this time the other man had come back and also filming me and I started to worry - I'm in a secluded area, with two men who are much bigger than me. I told them I felt intimidated and are they trying to scam me?

I got in my car and tried to shut the door but 1st man held onto it to prevent me. I asked if he's trying to detain me and he said no but I will if you don't give me your details, I've identified myself to you as a police officer. I said you've got no right to detain me. Eventually he let go of the door and I had to turn the car round as the lane is a dead end. Once I turned round he said again that I'm breaking the law by refusing to give my details after a collision and he started to recite the Caution they give when you're arrested! I drove away very shaken up, no idea what consequences to expect.

Isn't it terrible and so sad? With all that we've learned in recent years about the sickening misogyny within the Police and the ongoing appalling violence against women and girls from men - on a website aimed at women we still get such a reaction.

Yes it certainly was - see my update.

There are two issues here though

1. whether there was an accident and what you were going to do about it. Your initial posts suggested you didn’t think there had been an accident and you weren’t going to do anything about it. It appears later on you relented and called 101.
2. the behaviour of the policeman. Which sounds like it got more inappropriate as time went on. Hand delivering forms to your house is crazy.

I think some commentators on your initial posts may have changed their minds as the story unfolded. Some people like myself may have thought your action actions were unreasonable but can still think that the policeman’s actions are also unreasonable. I’m sorry you’ve gone through this OP. It must be incredibly stressful. I hope the pc gets the punishment he deserves.

I'm amazed at how many people on here have sided with this off duty copper abusing his position and insisted that you have broken the law, despite you doing exactly the right thing, calling the police and being told what to do.

Have you had your car checked by a mechanic?

Bumpers are plastic these days and are designed to deform and return to their original shape. There could be damage under the bumper even if the bumper looks fine.

A crunching sound does suggest there was some damage

Couldn't keep away @zerofeeling thanks for the update. That would have been really helpful sooner rather than the dripfeed we got, as I lost about 10 hours of my life to this thread this afternoon.

To conclude there were 2 key issues:

• Was OP obligated to give her details
• Did the police officers act appropriately?

And we can now conclude that you were both in the wrong.
-Yes OP, you were obligated to give your details as there were reasonable grounds that a collision took place and you have a legal obligation to do so under section 170......I'm not repeating all of it as I went through it in detail earlier
-Now we have an update it would appear that on the whole they did not behave appropriately. They could argue that showing their badge and filming was "evidence gathering". I think that is reasonable. But now we know that the off duty office accessed the PNC systems to look up OPs address for a personal matter then that would be a breach of data and abuse of power which is not acceptable.

As a female police officer I would have done exactly as these two have done.
good luck with your complaint but unless there is something else you haven’t told the forum, they haven’t committed either a criminal offence or one under code of conduct.

In many traffic accidents there isn’t visible damage but insurers will always advise to get car checked for chassis/bumper damage. From your initial account you stated you heard a noise which would indicate a collision.

you do know that this thread should be disclosed as well for the purpose of the investigation?? @mumsnet should preserve it now that you have made a formal complaint

So you would also abuse your position as a Police Officer in order to harass a member of the public? That's quite an admission.

How do you know it was the same person? Do you have CCTV or ring doorbell footage it was the original person

Nope I but I absolutely would ensure that you complied with the law

You just said you would have done the same as this man who has abused his position to intimidate and harass me - now you're backtracking?

Nope. I’m asking how you know it’s the same person who has issued you with official paperwork?

other than that part I would have done the same

Yes you did it's there in black and white - you said, as a female police officer you would have done exactly the same as the two men and they haven't done anything wrong.

He has done a significant amount wrong but instead of being shocked at his abuse of his position you're instantly leaping to defend him - the Police will never regain public trust while they continue to employ such people.

Can you acknowledge at any point what you have done?
and why an officer of the law has an issue with it??

You’d have started off the conversation very aggressively, then forcibly held a woman’s door (especially as 2 men), knowing as an experienced police officer that the woman calling in to 111 would be told she’s behaved suitably? So basically you do not give a single shit about any department behaviour guidelines or the public image of the police? Even if you were a good police officer in the past when you get to that level of fuck them all I can do whatever I want about the public, it’s time to retire or change careers.

Can you acknowledge that his behaviour was reprehensible, inexcusable and brings the Police into disrepute or are you going to continue to defend him?

You still haven’t answered this. Until you do I won’t engage

Good. Don't engage, go away and sort yourself out for everyone's sake.

So the man whose car you damaged is holding you accountable. Good to know.

Are you going to pay for the repairs to his car yourself or let your insurers pay? They are going to be very surprised when his estimate turns up if you have told them there was no damage. Fortunately there is video of the exchanges after you reversed into his car and he will have quotes for repair so everything should be very simple. No she said he said.
And of course your admissions in this thread which could be subpoenaed as evidence.

The rest of it is a separate issue, the alleged misconduct which will be investigated separately. Let’s hope that goes your way saving you from possible civil (defamation) and criminal (wasting police time) cases. Regardless of the outcome of that, you are still liable for damages caused to his car.

"No one has to report a 'possible' collision where no one was hurt and no damage caused"

Leaving aside your ability to assess "no damage" by a cursory visible inspection and your mind reading powers of the motivation of the person whose car you just hit there is still a duty to report a collision to your insurer under the legal principle of utmost good faith.

People I know who work in the law including police, solicitors etc have to be extra careful with abiding by this kind of thing and cannot simply minimise it and drive off like you did.

Kind of weird you spent so long on a thread and still didn't acknowledge that she did give her details within the required time frame to the police call handler who then give her advice which she followed.

The misogyny continues.

Shining example of the MN pile on in this thread. All pile on the OP despite facts given proving the pile on unnecessary to say the least.

Up the sisterhood!

My advice for situations like this

1/ Take photos
As long as it’s safe to do so, take as many photos as you can of the other vehicle wherever your vehicle has potentially touched it - to show the condition of the vehicle at that moment (helps avoid them later claiming you demolished the front end of the vehicle!), take some pictures of your own vehicle at the same time (photos on most mobile phone cameras are location, time and date stamped - showing damage or lack thereof to both vehicles at exactly the same time helps prove you can’t have demolished the front end of theirs).
If it’s safe to leave vehicles in situ take pics showing positioning of them both too. If not (eg you’re in the middle of a busy road junction so need to move vehicles to the side), take photos of the location and as soon as you can make a note/diagram to show where both vehicles were positioned at the time. (and usually have a look around for CCTV - but unfortunately probably not an option in your case).

2/ Exchange details or report to the police?
The details that should be provided includes names, addresses & insurance information. It’s perfectly natural that a lone female faced by one or more aggressive male is not going to feel comfortable providing such personal details. If you don’t exchange details at the scene, you can instead report to the police - it doesn’t have to be there and then but must be within 24hours. You would just explain the reason you didn’t swap details at the scene - eg other driver didn’t stop/ wasn’t present/ you felt intimidated. I would 100% advise that if anyone (male or female) does not feel safe providing their details to the other driver, instead politely tell them that you won’t be providing your information and you will report it to the police.
(The other driver then contacts their insurance company with your registration number and the insurance company if necessary will contact the police - though the insurance company already has access to the details of your insurance company).
(Also just to note, you should also inform your own insurance company - if you don’t intend to make a claim they will just record it as for info only).

Yes I would like to have taken photos but I was very wary of doing anything that might make the man more angry.

You still here? Sweetheart get some sleep..