4yo DD says she’s a boy and I’m being accused of pushing her

[whatfreshhell0]

Bit of a long one, sorry. Just need to vent and see if anyone else has had this.

DD is 4, youngest of 4 – she’s got three big brothers (10, 8 and 6) and she’s basically grown up trying to keep up with them. She’s loud, funny, loves being outdoors, obsessed with football and bugs and Minecraft. Couldn’t care less about dolls or sparkly stuff. Just not her thing. She’s always just been more into “boy” things but recently it’s stepped up – she’s been saying she is a boy and asking us to call her by a boy’s name she picked (it’s a normal name, just v much a boy one).

She’s also super close to her 6yo brother – they’re like twins, always together. She looks up to him loads and copies everything. She’s started saying she wants to be like him – clothes, hair, everything. On Saturday I let her get the same haircut as him – really short. It was boiling hot and she was constantly sweaty and matted, wouldn’t let me brush it or put it up. She was so happy after the haircut, couldn’t stop smiling. Been showing everyone her “cool haircut like [brother]”.

She also flat out refuses to wear the summer dress for nursery (it’s the uniform) – completely melts down if I try. So I’ve just been sending her in her brother’s old school shorts and a polo. No one said anything till now. But this week nursery pulled me aside saying they’re “concerned” and asked if I’ve been “encouraging” it. I honestly nearly laughed. Like what? For letting her wear comfy clothes and cut her hair?

I’ve never said anything to her about being a boy or girl or anything like that. Just let her wear what she wants and didn’t fight her on the haircut because she was clearly miserable. But now I’ve got staff side-eyeing me and family making comments that I’m confusing her or pushing her into being trans or whatever. Even MIL said she’ll “end up bullied or messed up” if I don’t “nip it in the bud”. What exactly am I meant to do? Force her into a dress and make her cry every morning?

She’s FOUR. She knows what she likes and what she doesn’t, and I’m just trying to keep things calm and let her be herself. But now I’m doubting myself and feel like I’m being judged for doing the wrong thing, whichever way I go.

They should change the uniform policy so that it isn’t sexist. There is no need for it. Dress as an option, shorts/trousers as an option. We campaigned for and got trousers added the the uniform for girls at secondary school 30 years ago, I’m surprised everywhere hasn’t caught on yet. (Actually its about more than fairness. If they can’t do climbing and running in a dress without showing their underwear girls are likely to just stop being active)
The more they make certain thing just for boys or just for girls eg comfy clothes or short hair, the more perfectly normal children will want the ‘wrong’ one and then gat the message they are the one that is wrong, wrong body, wrong mind. Just make sure she knows there is nothing gender specific about clothes or haircuts!

This sounds very much like my daughter. She has said since she was 4ish that she wants to be a boy. The last year has refused all dresses and only wear sports clothing or clothes aimed at boys.
She hates pink/dolls/make up anything she considers girly. The one exception is that she loves her long, blonde hair in fancy styles. She has considered having it cut like her 2 older brothers a number of times.
I won't force her to do anything she hates, she's not hurting anyone.
I would have a chat with nursery.

"She isnt at full time school either so she is in fact allowed to wear whatever."

Does that apply to prep school nurseries, too? Many have a uniform policy for their nursery schools.

We don't know what type of nursery school the OP's daughter attends - she has not said.

@IstanbulBaby In YR they change clothes for PE. A girls’ uniform affects nothing in terms of sport and activities. My DDs were talkers, not tree climbers.

If DD here is confused, I think she needs some girl stereotypes but the future might be an interesting ride! Maybe seeming all those blond ponytails in the Euros might help?

That could have been me at her age (except hair, I liked mine long and matted). There was never any leeway for school uniform, or dresses for “occasions” I would cry and tantrum but capitulated & wore the dress.

At home, I wore boys jeans, boys trainers but oddly girl tops (kitten, pony type designs). No name change - never occurred to me.

I high school, I discovered boys and slowly started dressing as a girl, makeup etc.

I was not scarred by parents wanting me to appear as a girl when required. There were many times I was told NO about many many things other than refusing dresses. I think that’s part of being a child.

DD was allowed shorts at nursery and I would have an issue with any nursery forcing a girl to wear a dress if boys can wear shorts. It’s not practical or fair.

Back in the 80s before all this was a thing, age 8-11 I had short hair, wouldn’t wear dresses, idolised a male film character and wanted to be called his name. I watched traditionally male sports and had no interest in traditionally female toys/games. At 12 I started liking boys as more than playmates and it all changed. It was just a phase.

Crucially no one made a fuss about my hair, clothes and interests so I did what I wanted and emerged the other side loving being the woman that I am. I’m definitely tougher and more resilient than a lot of women I know, more ambitious and go getting and I’ve never let my sex stand in my way. But those can be female traits even if we think of them as traditionally male.

it sounds as if your daughter just wants to be like her brothers and that’s ok. She should be able to wear shorts, play traditionally male games/sports, even be called a name she likes and still be a girl. I wouldn’t be forcing her into a dress. I’d be letting her enjoy the same pursuits as her brothers and just not passing comment or giving it attention. She will most likely grow up to be a strong, independent woman who doesn’t take any shit from anyone! And good for her.

As for nursery, they need to rethink their uniform policy as it’s incredibly sexist. I would just explain she likes to be treated the same as her brothers and that’s ok. Girls can wear shorts, can play football and can even have boyish names. This obsession with reinforcing gender stereotypes can be so damaging.

Why does she need to wear the correct uniform for her sex? If she is wearing the uniform what does it matter? Why are the nursery forcing girls to wear dresses. My DD hates dresses and will never wear dresses or skirts now.

OP I think you are being perfectly reasonable if she doesn’t want to wear a dress don’t force her. Shorts and a polo are much more practical (of course if a girl wants to wear a dress that’s fine too). Getting a short haircut in this weather seems perfectly reasonable too. I’d be asking nursery why they have a problem with you allowing her to express herself. If she has three older brothers it’s hardly surprising anyway. Just ignore anyone telling you different.

totallu agree with this. She needs to know being a girl and liking all that stuff is ok. Show her the women’s Euros football that’s on now for example. You can like stereotypical “boy” things and still be a girl.

No they don’t this is nonsense!
Are you in the UK OP? In wales anyway schools aren’t allowed to have gendered school uniforms (as in if a skirt is an option they aren’t allowed to say it’s only for girls).
I would carry on as you are OP, keep telling her she can do whatever she wants and that girls can do all the things you mentioned she likes- but she isn’t a boy and will never be one.
I wouldn’t be calling her a different name either - my DD wanted to change her name to Aurora (like sleeping beauty!) when she was 4 but we said no and if she still wanted to when she was 18 she could!

I was exactly the same, except I wanted to be called Simon 😂. In my case, my brother got cool clothes and toys and I got handed baby dolls and frilly dresses, which I was not impressed with. I insisted I was a boy because I wanted hi top trainers and a baseball cap. For me, the message I was getting loud and clear was that being a girl was lame and boys got better stuff. Once I realised I could be a girl and have the things I wanted, I gave up on being called Simon.

@Iamthemoom Not reinforcing it leads to lots of issues too!

I have a brother 2 years older than me - we were v close at that age and I would wear a lot of his hand me downs, wouldn’t wear much girly things, and at exactly the same age I clearly remember asking my mum to have my hair cut short like my brothers, which I got! But these were the days before anyone was worried about gender identity so no one batted an eyelid and neither did I- it wasn’t that I wanted to be a boy it was just my frame of reference at the time, which sounds the same as your daughter. It never stuck or meant anything else and as I settled into school, my hair grew out, I wore the same clothes as my peers and that was that. I still prefer jeans over a skirt but that’s about the extent of it!

Of course your daughter may find she does have some strong opinions on her gender as she grows up, but right now i’d suggest not reading too much into it or making it a thing… I doubt she is even aware of what she is saying makes it a ‘thing’!!

When he was younger ds said he was a girl.

I shut that shit down fast.

It turned out that a knobhead family member had been talking about him liking 'girly' things and laughing at him (I hadn't been present at the time).

After I took ds to said dickheads house and gave him the mother of dressing downs infront of him, I reiterated to ds that no, he was a boy, and would always be a boy. BUT that there are many stupid people in the world, who thought that boys and girls weren't allowed to do what they liked. And we ignore those silly people, because they are wrong.

I started pointing out things like the clothing label on his favourite pink t-shirt (Does this say girls only?) and on his toy pushchairs box (Doesn't say no boys allowed does it? And Daddy pushes dd's pushchair too doesn't he? Does that make him a Mummy, or is it just silly to say only Mummy can do that?)

He toned it down a bit once he started primary school (peer pressure I'm guessing) but he still loves his crochet, pink shirts and looking after the little ones at family parties.

Just wanted to comment to say it sounds like you’re handling it perfectly. A good female friend of mine has always said she went through a phase where she wanted to be a boy when she was about this age. In her situation it was stranger, as she is the eldest so no older brothers. She wanted her hair short, asked to be called a boys name, would only play on the boys football team etc. She always said her parents handled it brilliantly - didn’t make a big deal of it, followed her lead, and eventually she grew out of it. She was never a girly girly, but definitely has definitely has no gender issues since. Follow your gut and ignore everyone else.

@whatfreshhell0 your dd sounds fab and you sound like you’re doing great ☺️
Angelina Jolie faced this with her DD - she just let her express herself with both hair cuut and clothing in shot down the media and all criticism.
My DD had a friend all through primary who wore boys clothes and when she hit 10 she suddenly started wanting to wear mini skirts and make up.
I agree with all the posters who just say let her be and keep telling her that girls can do and wear what they want!

Similar-ish for me. I was more of a tween (8ish to 11ish? Maybe?) where I had intermittent phases of wanting to be a boy.

I didn’t grow up in a sexist household. My parents were typical “progressive parents” for their time (early 90ies). But there was still sooo much cultural messaging about what was cool, fun, strong etc. “Kick like a girl” / “ohhh, you’re such a girl” were definitely things boys said to each other.

and most of the cool, fun characters I liked (be that Asterix in comics or fantasy heroes) were men / boys.

are you sure that this isn’t an attitude your DD has absorbed? Especially if she’s growing up in a somewhat traditional environment/ setting?

I just wanted to feel that being wild, loud, messy and “rude” (<=not actually rude, but boisterous) was considered to be socially admirable (or at least acceptable).

The nursery staff want to have a word with themselves really—what on earth are they thinking to assume it’s some kind of weird agenda?!

I think you’re handling it well—telling your DD she can’t do this or that (short hair, comfy clothes) because she isn’t a boy wouldn’t help any doubts she might have. This way she knows it’s fine to just be whoever she is with you—she’s more likely to try things out and see if they work for her rather than feeling like she has to “prove” her commitment to something in order to be allowed to try it, which might make it tougher to backtrack later if she wants. If that makes sense…

For what it’s worth one of my DD was the exact same—short hair, “boy” clothes and football at 4. Then she started school and insisted on dresses and frilly socks so people would “know she was a girl”. Now, at the end of Reception, she’s back to shorts and trainers because she’s realised she has nothing to prove to anyone and can do what feels comfortable for her. I’m proud of her for figuring herself out like that.

What the fuck is wrong with all of you saying she has to wear a dress?! Should we bring back corsets as well? How about foot binding? If she’s happier in shorts and a t shirt then let her wear them. She’s FOUR. She may want to a boy for now just because her brothers are people she looks up to and grow out of it. She may feel that she should have been a boy and not grow out of it. But all trying to force her into dresses will do nothing but make her miserable so why do it?

Just like my DD, she was a boy named Jack, and her brain told her she was a boy. We just let her crack on, she is still very much a 'tomboy' but grew out of it

As a nursery worker myself I see the concern. She is incorrectly telling people she is a different sex, possibly upsetting some children and their parents and given the prevalence of gender ideology, they needed to know if you were supporting this. But you've clarified that now. I'll bet her brothers are using gender stereotypes against her making her wish she was a boy because that's the only way to do the fun stuff that she likes. So that's what you need to address.

As for the uniform, it does seem silly to have that rule, but it is a rule. If she is refusing to wear it and becoming distressed you should talk to the staff and see what they say. She will probably need to wear a uniform next year in big school so you need to work on that. I think not adhering to the rules without talking to them has done you no favours.

As for the pretence, this is really common at that age and needs to be shut down. In my nursery we do not ever distinguish between gender, anyone can wear the princess costume or play with cars, but sometimes it's something we say for practical reasons, like 'girls go wash your hands'. When someone says they are not a girl / boy we just say yes you are. Kids do variations of this all the time and you can't indulge it. Example 'Emma, tidy up', could be answered with 'I can't tidy up because I'm a unicorn now' or 'my name is Bluey' and we just say 'you are Emma now who needs to tidy up and you can be a unicorn/ bluey again in a few minutes'. If they are let get away with it they will start insisting on it all the time and it will just get ridiculous. I think its great that you let her be who she wants to be but she needs to be reassured that she is in fact a girl.

I’m really curious why some people think that it is ok for a school to have different uniform rules for different sexes?

Is it that you actually believe that dresses are only for women and girls?

Op clearly describes her daughter's intetests, clothing and hair styling preferences.

Didn’t it used to be normal for kids to go through phases like this without being labelled? In cases like this it is we adults who are the problem. Kids just copy what they see around them. It makes sense to me that a 4 year old with 3 brothers would identify as a boy. As soon as adolescence starts and she starts to be interested in boys (if that is her natural proclivity) and her in them it could all change. For now what does it matter if she is what used to be called in the old days a Tomboy (language that I assume is now cancelled so please forgive any misuse - I am old).

Personally, I believe they should all be in comfy tracksuits and shorts and T-shirts for summer with absolutely no difference between boys and girls. Why shouldn’t she have her hair short either.
I would say ‘oh yes, I’ll get that sorted’ and just keep sending in as they are. Hopefully eventually they will give up asking.