To wonder why women do this to themselves?

[YourAmplePlumPoster]

https://images.app.goo.gl/qjKyBnm1bkpCKefWA
Lauren Sanchez before and after. What is it with inflatable lips and sculpted cheeks and the inflated breasts? She looked like a nice, attractive woman before.

Personally I dislike any discussion that focuses on aesthetics framed as feminism. The dangers of procedures, societal pressure on women and stereotypes of femininity are feminist issues. The impact on women of some men claiming to be women is a feminist issue. Attacking the aesthetics of a person's appearance, be they a man identifying as a woman or a woman with fillers, calling human beings grotesque and sex clowns, be they men or women, is nothing to do with feminism for me.

I’ve never said she is defined by men, (although her self-modification is defined by what she thinks is the male gaze). She looks both like a woman creating a sexualised caricature and a man doing the same thing. There’s an exaggerated parodic performative aspect to drag queen self-presentation.

Absolutely. There is a definite masculinity to some of these very enhanced women.

I don’t get the logic that it is fine for women to espouse feminine gender stereotypes because they are women, but not for drag queens/transwomen because feminine gender stereotypes are harmful and drag queens/transwomen adopting them is harmful to women? Surely gender stereotypes are harmful full stop?

“mY hUsBaNd AgReEs”

Well, your husband isn’t the richest man on the planet, and I doubt he could ever bag someone like Lauren Sanchez anyway, so he’s not exactly qualified to judge 🙃

ah yes, got it. I don't have much idea what he talks about, i am not really interested in what most of these people say.

But agree there is nothing like 92 private jets descending on a city that will be ravaged by climate change and the rising sea levels etc that will bring.

She looks nothing like a man. She looks like a woman who's had too much surgery and she's really trying to look younger rather than more feminine; she wouldn't look like a man without any surgery, she'd just look like an older woman. A man trying to perform femininity is not the benchmark for a woman's appearance.

I didn’t say she looked like a man I said she looked a like a drag queen which is a specifically stylised caricature of femininity.

A drag queen, by definition, is a man!

Drag queens present a very specific extreme parodic image of femininity - that is what I am referring to.

Anyway we will have to agreed to disagree, I don’t have time to argue further.

They do it for men.
And men look at them and think "if they will do that for me... if they will go through surgery, disfigure their faces and bodies, they will do anything for me..."

I agree and I have long thought this, especially about very obvious breast implants.
It's signals an extreme willingness to subordinate yourself to the desires of men, even to your own detriment.

Don’t be ridiculous. Even a tiny divorce settlement from the world’s richest man would mean she would live a life of great luxury and privilege for the rest of her life. Also, she’s 55 and quite rich in her own right. You’re coming across as very bitter indeed.

A man who portrays themselves as a specific type of woman. A lot of them are very convincing, as well. They aren't all six foot burly guys with five o'clock shadow, you know. Some of them look more feminine than actual women.

Yes but the whole point is that they're men, which changes the whole dynamic because the only person doing ridiculous woman stereotypes in performance isn't actually a woman. And it's an aesthetic that women don't actually do unless they're performing too. Hence Ru Paul saying that he impersonates drag queens, not women. I don't think Sanchez has done herself any favours but it's ridiculous to say she looks like Ru Paul in drag. Men performing caricatures of femininity that aren't actually supposed to pass as female and indeed don't are not the point of reference for a woman styling herself.

Put another way, Sanchez might look like a bad version of herself, but we don't determine that by how she stacks up against a man doing a bad version of women. She doesn't resemble, and is not, a man playing at being a woman.

That's your opinion. I think she looks very masculine!

It is my opinion, well done for noticing. And we know that your opinion on whether something is self expression or clownish and worthy of ridicule depends on whether the person doing it is a man or woman since you, like everyone, know who the women are.

A man who uses padding, face tape, heavy make up and a wig, is still a man, so his 'femininity' is a matter of bias and opinion of the observer. A women who has botox and fillers is still a woman so her femininity is a matter of fact. I'm really not sure what point is being served by the comparison? You think some women's procedures make them look like drag Queens, and this is 'grotesque'. You think some men's costumes make them look feminine. I'm still struggling to see the link.

Some of them look more feminine than actual women.

Quite possibly. Femininity, in this context, is a performance, a set of adornments and behaviours, that can be adopted or discarded at will and doesn't dictate a person's actual sex. It is changeable and subjective, again unlike sex.

What's an "actual woman"?

@eqpi4t2hbsnktd when did you first realise that you had the ability to read the minds of men? (Just certain ones or all men btw?) This is projection.

The post is asking why women do this (comestic/elective surgical procedures) to themselves. The answer would be something that each individual woman would answer and only on their own behalf.

To me personally it does not appeal or look good. It looks obvious in a lot of cases but not all (men and women) and my opinion is that it does not enhance most people. I am aware that my opinion is purely that - my opinion.

I don't think that there is any point in my continuing with this thread as we seem to be talking past each other. I will admit to not fully understanding the point of view of those who are offended by drag queens but not by incredibly enhanced women, as they both portray a stereotype of femininity: if anything, I would think that the women who present that way make things harder for other women. The drag queens serve the useful function of showing how even a man can look feminine and attractive, ie there is nothing inherently unfeminine about a woman who doesn't choose to present herself like that.

I don't think we're talking past each other. I think you just don't have very reasoned points to make, haven't thought it through and therefore don't have a response to the criticisms being made against your arguments, such as they are.

Your MO in every post seems to be an attempt to blur the lines ("some drag queens look more feminine than women, this woman looks masculine) while also indicating at every point that you know precisely who the women are (see previous brackets, plus your insistence on blaming women more for, well, everything).

After all, you could just tell us what you mean by "actual women", how they differ from transwomen and drag queens and why it's worse for them to have cosmetic procedures than the excessive surgeries involved when a man tries to "transition". Or why women who have these procedures somehow fail at womanning, while men "are more feminine" - in other words, succeed at womanning - when they do.

People are offended by drag Queens because they are MEN portraying women as stereotypes. It wouldn't much matter what stereotype they chose. 70s comedians dressed as stereotypical rolling pin wielding older women were just as offensive. Women adopting extreme stereotypes of femininity are not pretending to be women, they are women expressing a femininity that is theirs by right. The fact you think the men look better and more feminine than the women is a niche view that's neither here nor there. People aren't offended by drag because it looks bad.

@ThatCyanCat

Who’s we? In your opinion, I disagree and you will just have to accept that as I don’t have time to argue as I said.

Does anyone remember The Stepford Wives movie? That's what these women look like. Plastic robots.