To ask if you refused to help with older relatives and how that went down?

[Fragmentedbrain]

I have 2 parents and 2 parents in law closing in on needing care. Reading other threads here it sounds as though this has a high chance of ruining my life over the next decade or so.

My husband and I work full time, love our jobs and don't have any caring responsibilities or instincts, not even a cat. I don't want to give up work or holidays or enjoying this bit of my life before I in turn am too old.

If we refuse to get involved beyond visits to say hello, how screwed are our parents?

(As we are child free I am not worried about any example setting although appreciate the relationship with siblings could get tricky)

Did you not have a loving relationship with your parents growing up? I can't imagine not helping my parents out in their old age.

It’s tricky isn’t it- I agree with the poster who pointed out that the message is often ‘you are not entitled to expect anything from grandparents regarding help with grandchildren, so equally they shouldn’t expect care from you on their old age’.
my one remaining parent was a great parent to me growing up but pretty much said job done once I reached 18. Has looked after my now grown up kids for a total of 4 hours. They are expecting me to care for them in their old age and I feel conflicted, great parent for 18 years but terrible parent and grandparent thereafter…

Oh, my goodness. Ask yourself who will care for you when you need a loving, caring hand? Have they been very bad parents? Did they treat you will scorn and lack of care? Were they supportive, both emotionally and financially all through the years to help you become, who you have become? If the former, I can understand, if the latter, take a look in the mirror and ask yourself the question 'why am I asking on Mumsnet?'. There are two sides to this story. If you have it in you to be a carer and you were cared for by them, then the answer is already set. If they treated you badly and you got where you are irrespective of their bad treatment, then at least consider being a manager, as in make sure they get help in the home, contact agencies, ensure there is enough money to pay for their care. When the end comes, those final days, when they can't do things for themselves, will you be there? Is there an inheritance at stake here. Mmm lots to think about.

I think the difficulty comes during that bit in between starting to become infirm or needing support with things, but before it gets bad enough for professional carers. And that can be a very quick progression or can go on years. Even once the professionals are involved, they won’t help with financial things (as far as I know) or trips to hospital, or shopping. And if siblings are having to shoulder the burden I think resentment will build. I’m so grateful to have my sister to share the care of my parents. My dad is in a care home now and they are wonderful but we still support with other things.

Maybe look into power of attorney arrangements for you and DH (and respective siblings) to cover your own parents. Those can really help document practical health and financial wishes in a clear way. And it’s better to have those discussions sooner than when they are necessary or overdue…

If you’re not willing to do hands on care (and that’s your choice) you (and other relevant siblings) can still build plans around practical support and commit to them - eg arranging deliveries, annual house check/sorting out the bills, sorting a cleaner, making sure they get their bus pass or whatever. These are not too time consuming but can make a significant impact.

I think YABU if you think you can fully ignore participating in these discussions, but that’s mostly because unless you’re estranged it is a reality that you will end up having these discussions anyway.

Your choice; if you don't want to look after parents that's fine. However be open to them so they don't have false hopes. In the UK, having Lasting Power of Attorney would be helpful (HW if not both). HW ensures you can make decisions about where they reside and what care they seek, if / when they cannot make decisions themselves. Without it, if they lack capacity the professionals will decide. Both parents should have HW (alongside you) and PF for each other. Be clear your involvement is at arm's length.

The elderly need an advocate to be there for them in hospitals imo. I have seen similar several times - no one to think of what someone needs, even a glass of water. Particularly when being quizzed by doctors, the hearing or memory impaired person needs someone with them to prompt accurate answers. On hospital wards when my DM was an inpatient, I several times intervened when doctors discussed her case notes as they did not read them properly and were factually completely wrong about her condition, even to do with proposing an operation that she had previously been declared unfit for because of a heart condition that they were unaware of (though it was in her notes). I could go on.

I did actually say that in my post already - "(unless there are relationship issues/toxicity)"

My parents "emotional support" was non existent and we never spoke of personal issues together, they were very much old school and more stick than carrot, modelled a strong worth ethic and left us to learn from our own mistakes and work out life's challenges for ourselves.

It was unsaid, but I knew my siblings and I were their priority even though they were harsh with it, they raised us that way to be incredibly resilient and fiercely independent - it might not have been an emotionally supportive way to do it, but, and this is important, they did the best that they were capable of. I might not have recognised, or appreciated, that as a child or teenager, but I do as an adult.

Obviously every relationship is different, especially abuse, genuine neglect is very different, and I don't know your parents or you just sharing my experience and reflections I had of my own upbringing.

There can be pitfalls of having PoA though- it is a big responsibility to take on

Without it I think social services will step in and / or the doctors make decisions and check capacity etc

then you can get the situation where they won't give you PoA anyway

Leave ILs to your husband, I think that’s fair.

If you have siblings I think you need to start setting expectations now. They might be upset - I think could be where you will be challenged or will meet resistance. Obviously depends on various factors.

it’s one thing to say you dont want to give up your job and be a full tine carer, and you shouldnt be expected to do that. But saying you won’t drive them to the chiropodist is just horrible and makes me think you are a very selfish person. Obviously if they are wealthy they may be able to get taxis etc. But would you really tell your own parents to get a taxi to hospital for eg cancer treatment because you cant be bothered to helo?

The OP has said that she deliberately didn't have kids because she doesn't want to have to care for anyone:

'Yeah but the reason I don't have kids is that I hate hate all that stuff. I don't want anyone relying on me.'

Having children is a choice and caring for elderly parents should be a choice. Some people want to do it and some people would just feel too guilty not to. OP doesn't feel like that.

Apologies not RTFT but we’ve been at the sharp end of this for a few years now with PILs. I refused to even start this with my own mum.

Only thing I will say is it’s easier to just not start, say no from the get go. If you do anything then realise there are no one-offs- regardless of promises, so don’t do anything you’re not happy to keep up indefinitely.

Before fully answering… here’s my disclaimer…I’m in the US so things are different here. But some of my experience may be helpful.

OP, I think you should start having the conversations now. Such as what their plans and expectations are, POA, and medical directives. You and your DH need to be on the same page too!

About 5 or 6 years ago I had 2 parents and 2 ‘adoptive’ parents that my DH and I had signed up to take care of. And so far have had 3 totally different experiences 😁. So really, just go into all of this knowing all plans can go to hell in a hand basket no matter what kind planning you do 😳

My mum got sick (cancer) and deteriorated really quick. I was 400 mi away so my hands on support was pretty limited. That being said I was able to manage her medical care effectively remotely. The hands on was more challenging. She had always said she was not going to be one of those old people who refused to give up their houses… she became one of those old people who refused to give up her house. In the end she probably only had 1-2 weeks where she needed a lot of hands on care. If my sister hadn’t been local I would have arranged for in home care from an agency.

My stepdad (again 400 mi away) at the same time was physically deteriorating (falls, mobility, not being able to care for himself). After a fall he went to the hospital, from there he went to an assisted living facility, where he’s been since. This place has care that ranges from assisted living to hospice. Effectively he’s the responsibility of the state now. The facility he’s at is a good one, the county pays for everything, the facility arranges for any medical appointments he has and provides both transportation and someone to go with him. I buy him stuff he needs from amazon. When he moved in surprisingly an old friend was also a resident, so she is also taking care of him. He’s now been moved to full nursing care.

And lastly, my 2 adopted parents are currently in independent living (I think this is similar to your sheltered living). They are local to us, so my DH and I have given more hands on support (a few doctor’s appts, sporadic calls to come over for a medical thing, tech support, etc.). We’ve discussed with them about their plans. Where they live has step care from independent living through hospice. They are not expecting hands on care but I expect we will be more actively involved in the next couple of years. These 2 are the poster children for the “I don’t want to be a bother”, so I’m not expecting them to expect us to take care of them 24/7. They’ve also been very proactive to set up their lives so that they will have the resources they need at each stage. DH and I knew what we were signing up for when we agreed to help them so no regrets.

I think you just need to be upfront with what you’re able to do and to expect some level of involvement. That being said don’t feel guilty or pressured to give up your life. I will be honest it didn’t feel great telling the social worker that my stepdad had no resources and no home to go to after discharge from the hospital. I also had to tell them that I was not responsible for him and was not going to move him in with me or care for him. I did tell them what I was willing and able to do but that was going to be limited. I had to tell my stepdad the same thing. All of his social workers have been great and have not pressured or guilted me at all. So you will have to be firm with your boundaries when it’s time for decisions to be made about care.

I joke with people my age when the topic comes up “Don’t be the responsible kid/sibling” 😁

I wouldn’t want my kids to give up their lives to be my carer.

The problem is with helping people is that they very quickly want more and more. And then you are taken for granted and it is expected and when you then try and put boundaries in, it’s like you’re the worst person on the planet.
We’ve had it with siblings and child care, parents, neighbours - we offer to do something to help because we can see they’re struggling with it but then it’s “can you just…”.

Not to say you shouldn’t help anyone ever but you need to be very clear with your boundaries.

It’s difficult but if you are clear about what you are and are not willing to do then you should be able to maintain those boundaries. I’d say the authorities do as little as possible which can force the family to pick it up. My DH and his brothers held firm and said they wouldn’t be paying a care home top up or taking on power of attorney. They do help but on their terms. I’ve found it extremely difficult but I feel a lot more guilt than DH! Knowing your rights and your parent’s rights helps. I’ve needed to master the terminology e.g. they have to deal with a safeguarding concern so if you raise things clearly as that then they will do something. There is a limit to everything they will do but I try to stand back and flag when there are issues. It took me 2 very stressful years to get care in place and lots of unbelievable experiences in the meantime! It is wise to have conversations with family now if you are clear about what you will and won’t do.

Well for a start I’d be making it clear that PiL are DH’s problem. Why on earth would they be yours? Do you think he is on message boards concerned about how his wife’s parents will be cared for in old age?

You are obviously projecting your feelings about your sister onto the OP.

OP has said that she isn't a caring person and has deliberately not had children as she isn't capable of providing care.

If OP has siblings, they are also under no obligation to provide care.

It’s not about owing for goodness sake. The poster said if your parents have been great parents then wouldn’t you want to help out a bit.
if you had great parents how could you live happily knowing they were struggling with things knowing you could easily help with some small things?

What should happen is if the parents are assuming this will happen (care) then they should at least have the respect way before it happens to have a conversation about what they want to happen and if their children are happy to accommodate this. To ignore the issue, assume their children will just step up so they then have it forced on them is not exactly fair or good for anyone.

I do think relationships are complex and this is not something everyone can or is willing to do. I do think as well if the parents have had very little to do with their adult children or grandchildren then most adult children won’t be willing to bend over backwards to care for their parents. I equate those two things as similar obligations. Yes no one is entitled to grandparents to show any interest in their grandchildren or adult children but then no parent is entitled to care in their old age. You get out what you put in usually. Your childhood is different- parents choose to have children and know what they are signing up for. It’s a thankless task really and not one that requires children to ‘pay it back’. I’d also look at how they cared for their own parents if they reached old age (unless the relationship had been truly terrible or abusive etc). You can’t expect to be given what you have not done for others.

Yes. My parents did that

They have long known it would be a cold day in hell before I'd step in to help

@Fragmentedbrain you say you didn’t have children as you didn’t want to care for anyone. Yet you married- if DH needs care at any point will you be available or would you bin him off too?

I cannot believe how cold op and others are, wtf.
The ridiculous (never asked to be born) 😂
If you have had loving parents why would you not WANT help out, AT ALL.
Strange, selfish people out there 🤔

Wow. That is stunningly awful.