Surviving life with a strong willed daughter

[heartsandtears]

Dd is 7 and as the title suggests she is very strong willed and as a result misses out on so much through consequences of this.
She will lose almost all promised treats and never gets any money, she loses out on play dates, screen time all while her siblings enjoy these things because she simply will not do as she’s told.
This morning for example I had promised to take her to McDonald’s after school because her sister was going home with a friend for dinner so we were going to have a treat together, she walked down the stairs in the school skirt I bought her for next winter which is currently too big, I asked her to put her dress on and she refused and I told her if she didn’t change into her school dress she wouldn’t be going to McDonalds so she decided she’d wear the too big skirt and not go to McDonald’s.
This won’t be because she doesn’t want to go it’s because she will not back down.
I want us to have a good relationship but I feel like she misses out on so much and everything seems to be a battle of wills and I just want to love her and enjoy things together but she just will not ever do as she’s told almost of a matter of principle and will eventually lose out on everything she’s looking forward to.
Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can get along with her and get her to do as she’s told?
She is so stubborn and wilful she’ll happily take any consequences as long as she gets her way.

one of the options shouldn’t have been to keep the skirt on if it’s too big. I’d have told her to take it off, end of. Why negotiate with her?

My son is strong willed and so was I. I’d say firstly pick your battles and secondly, natural consequences.

Does it really matter if she wore her skirt (maybe if it was against uniform policy) but if not I’d have said - fine. However your skirt is too big, if it falls down at school I won’t be bringing in spares. I also second not adding it to her wardrobe unless it’s ready to be worn.

I also think what has her skirt got to do with McDs? My son is super switched on but a consequence which is too removed doesn’t work (he’s 6).

I feel for you though! We have bedtime battles, he looses all manner of things and it doesn’t make a darn bit of difference.

Would an more playful approach work ?

(My daughter has pda autistic profile and neither bribes or threats work with her)

So..really dont show your annoyed..jusr try and stay super calm and zen and laugh

I mean thr skirt thing is funny right ? Just laugh and say yeh nice try let's get the right one one. Go up and just stand over her whole she changes.be persistent

Or. Let her wear it and she might back down when she realises it's comfy
.with hitting. I just stay calm and say no we dont do that.

My daughter is 11 and until she was about 9 or 10 she hit (she is autistic).

She has actually massively calmed down recently and never hits anymore

If you think the mcdonalds trip would have benefited you and her. Don't use it as a threat.

Do these little.bits of defiance really matter?

Also have you read Ross greene the explosive child?

I know how sort of shameful it can feel having an older child who hits ...people expect it from toddlers not 7 8 9 year olds.

But some children do not become emotionally regulated until an older age

Hard as it is...practice absolutely calm parenting ! When you change and she isn't getting a rise or getting further dysrgeulated she will calm down.

I practice low demand parenting...it's an autistic parenting technique but you could read about it

I think in this situation, you need to reframe it. If you want to get £x, you need to tidy your room. If you don’t want £x, then don’t tidy it.

My daughter is six a very strong willed. We went though an awful stage last year when it was constant battles. I’ve started to let natural consequences happen- like your skirt situation. I’d tell her it’s too big and will slip down. She doesn’t listen? Okay, wear it then. It’s on you. I’m the same with my daughter and her coat- a few times of her not wearing it in the cold and she started to listen to me when I said she should really wear it.

Giving choices on things that don’t really matter helped to. So “ do you want peas or carrots with your dinner?”, “ do you want to wear this dress or that dress today?”. We used to butt heads on socks and knickers (I never picked the right ones according to her), so I just put them in a box and she picks them herself in the morning. It’s a small choice but gives control.

Honestly if you have asked nicely and explained why she can't wear it and she's refusing to get changed at 6 I would just change her, ignore the tars and tantrums and take her into school( in her knickers if she refuses to put the correct clothes on)with the clothes in a bag.

Never suggest something as a punishment that is disproportionate and you won't follow through with. Find the things she cares about. Zero screen time for the night is much better than no day out with mummy for example.

Yes… I wonder where she gets being strong willed from! (OP I say this with love as I am the same).

Try to find other consequences or pick your battles? Try to avoid the conflict situations.

Some children will be far more receptive if you hug them and say "I know you're finding this hard" than if you get in a huge stand-off by insisting on asserting your authority.

You have no idea what MH problem they might have or about the resentment they might feel. You are not them. Violence is never the way to go, it's just for the parents to let off steam. Can't believe you still think that you smacking your children is correlated to their success with their careers. 🤦‍♀️

DD2 is stubborn and also defaults to disagreeing with me. I try incredibly hard not to get drawn in and also to go with natural consequences - okay fine you are going to be hitching up that skirt all day but that is entirely your problem.

I also try to give her an opportunity to back down without losing face, I will leave the room, I will do something else, anything to just get away from the argument that is inevitably brewing.

She reminds me of myself!! Being strong-willed even when it meant I missed out was the only way I could express myself. I was always compared to my perfect sisters, why couldn't I be like them etc etc. So I made being different my personality. Plus, it was fun to irritate my mum as she pissed me off too. I've had a lifelong 'issue' with authority. Nothing criminal, just utter eye rolling at anyone senior/ superior to me. Unless they are the rare manager or elder relative who doesn't think they should be obeyed just because of who they are.

I have utterly thrived with those who value my personality and give me space to grow. I don't really have a relationship with my mum, we don't have much in common and she's never understood me

Some friends popped in this morning with their baby who was due a nap and they put her upstairs in my bedroom in the carry cot so it would be quieter as everyone was downstairs. She was tired but not settling so they decided to come down and give her a minute to see if she’d go off.
I saw Dd go to the hall door to go upstairs and politely asked her not to go upstairs while friends were trying to settle their baby. She said she’s not settling anyway and I said she is trying to but she just repeated she isn’t settling so I said firmly do not go upstairs, she continued to open the door repeating herself slowly as if I was thick she is not settling.
She then looked me in the eyes while I insisted she not go upstairs and she closed the door behind her and continued on up.
Friends looked awkward so made their excuses to go home and settle the baby.
Do I just let it go and except she will never do as she’s told?
My instinct told me to punish her until she learns to dam well does as she’s told but I know it won’t work and will create more tantrums which lead nowhere.

She also bit her sister this morning because she wanted to stay in bed for a bit and she wanted her to get up and play with a toy, I have put said toy in the bin and told her every time she hurts her sister one of her toys at random goes in the bin, obviously she shrugs and says go on then but I don’t know what else to do with her.

You should have grabbed her by the hand and marched her back downstairs. She knows she can get away with whatever she wants.

Biting her sister is completely unacceptable. I'd have bitten her and asked her how she likes it but nobody on here would agree with that.

This behaviour will get worse if you do not establish control. All these gentle techniques being suggested will not work.

I hate online diagnoses, though this is screaming defiance disorder.
I'd suggest seeing a professional.
I understand your frustration. She is hiding a lot of anger, my DS didn't recognise authority at that age, he has asd, even now he will question me but not teachers and other adults in charge, thankfully.

I did an E-consult yesterday after some of the replies and I’m waiting for a call back from the GP to discuss ADHD. The biggest problem we’ll face is that her teachers see a completely different side to her and are surprised when we tell them she explodes like a shaken coke bottle the minute we leave the school gates. (I know she’s probably masking) I have brought it up in the past but was reassured she’s very well behaved and sweet and there’s no concern about her.
I don’t know much about the assessment process but if they speak to her teachers or asses her in the classroom they won’t see any of her struggles and we’ll have to prove her behaviour at home or she may not get a diagnosis.
I don’t want them to think she’s fine outside of the home so the problem much be at home as I think she’s just comfortable and doesn’t feel the need to mask at home.

Gentle parenting in my experience only works on children of a certain temperament!

OP, do you have somewhere she can go for timeout?

Also, and I don’t know if this is possible, but could the girls have a bedroom each? They clearly have very different personalities, and giving them their own space might eliminate some of the causes of the behaviour.

I had the same reaction from school when my DD was primary age, “she’s lovely and well behaved in school” - but they did listen and help. It’s very common for kids with ND, especially girls to appear “fine in school” - however my DD has encountered more problems with secondary as she can’t sustain the concentration needed, although she’s bright enough, and so she’s fallen behind and feels embarrassed about that which results in more anger and refusal to cooperate. So be aware the situation can be complex and puberty and the transition to secondary can complicate it further. I think you’re right to start exploring the possibility of ND, possibly ADHD, now as it can take a long time.

We are going to have to move to a larger house with more space, we planned to as they got older anyway. It did while they were younger but not now.

Time out didn’t work as she would refuse to go and if I led her there she wouldn’t stay. I even put a bolt on the hall door at one point to prevent her from coming in while she was having time out but she’d just rattle the door and kick it until I had to open it before it was damaged. Nothing works, she’s only tiny but the energy and determination she has is so powerful and relentless, it’s like she’s possessed when she doesn’t get her way.

Then the skirt is put away until it's for use. Why is it there to be picked if you know how she is?

I bet she feels the u fairness of never getting the treat and it's making it worse.

Saying 'take the skirt off or no mcdonalds' is offering a choice. You want 'go and take the skirt off and put your dress on, the skirt is too big' of it's a big dealt ather than threats brobes and bargaining. Then stick with it. And you can do that in a 'gentle' way by allowing her to be upset, remaining calm when dealing with her but it's not an unreasonable boundary. Or even 'i see you want to wear the skirt, but why do you prefer to wear the skirt?' and actually talk to her then set the boundary conversationally 'youre right, I can see why you'd feel a skirt is more grown up as c wears one, makes it exciting to get ear it next year doesn't it? But let's finish p3 in the dress then we can relegate it to a p3 thing and your skirt will be your big p4 outfit'

Not everything has to be done x or I'll take y, that kind of parenting makes my 7 yr old crazy.

Another situation my son would struggle with (he's on a referral pathway for ADHD and ASD and everything you described sounds so familiar, you do need to parent totally differentky if she is, low demand parenting, concentrating on regulating his nervous system and keeping his surroundings manageable helps way more than any authoritarian approach)

She reminds me of my DD as I said above

Just to give some hope if not advice - the older DD has got, the better (bar the odd hormonal dip). She is now year 7 and is loving the autonomy that senior school brings. I am not allowed to check she has her stuff or has done her homework, she wants to do it all herself, but by and large she does! So we have far fewer battles of will.

I don’t know what the teen years will bring of course but I think in general she will make sensible choices - as long as they are HER choices and not imposed by me. I’ve done my best to instil good morals and give her information about risks and hopefully she will put those into practice. But I know if I try to lay down the law it will backfire.

Basically, you have a 7 year old teenager. I bet she’s pretty bright too. Try treating her a bit older, involve her in decisions and see if she makes decent choices?

Don't worry too much at this stage. Although my DD was well controlled in school, the behaviours were there, just suppressed.

You have two child who don't struggle.

The more I have read of your update the more I think you should look at PDA pathological demand avoidance. Try the declarative language handbook and look at ‘connected parenting using a non violent resistance approach. Ask your school for a referral to the councils early help service. They will try and do various parenting courses which you may need to do to get through to the more useful stuff. Ask for an NVR course. We did one online 2hrs once a week for 10 weeks. Whilst it hasn’t solved everything it has helped. You have tried being stubborn and she will out stubborn you, it would be very difficult to change her but you absolutely can change your approach and that may help her and make sure you have a really strong bond and you will work though this. Pick your battles and think in terms of cost benefit. I can try and force her to do something m, what is her reaction likely to be and is the cost worth it?

We found NVR very useful.