Surviving life with a strong willed daughter

[heartsandtears]

Dd is 7 and as the title suggests she is very strong willed and as a result misses out on so much through consequences of this.
She will lose almost all promised treats and never gets any money, she loses out on play dates, screen time all while her siblings enjoy these things because she simply will not do as she’s told.
This morning for example I had promised to take her to McDonald’s after school because her sister was going home with a friend for dinner so we were going to have a treat together, she walked down the stairs in the school skirt I bought her for next winter which is currently too big, I asked her to put her dress on and she refused and I told her if she didn’t change into her school dress she wouldn’t be going to McDonalds so she decided she’d wear the too big skirt and not go to McDonald’s.
This won’t be because she doesn’t want to go it’s because she will not back down.
I want us to have a good relationship but I feel like she misses out on so much and everything seems to be a battle of wills and I just want to love her and enjoy things together but she just will not ever do as she’s told almost of a matter of principle and will eventually lose out on everything she’s looking forward to.
Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can get along with her and get her to do as she’s told?
She is so stubborn and wilful she’ll happily take any consequences as long as she gets her way.

Absolutely this. I was one of those girls. I think I drove my very quiet Mum to distraction. But I have to give her credit. She told me she disagreed with my choices, warned me of consequences, but ultimately let me find my own path. And I learned many valuable lessons along the way, some good,some bad, but most of all I learnt to hold true to what is important to me and stand up for it despite others opinions.

The McDonald's consequence didn't work because she got her own way in the immediate time. In a situation like this it becomes more of a bribe.

You need to match her up the stairs and stand there until she changes. If she refuses then you do it for her.

She's being physically violent and basically getting away with it because it's obvious she doesn't care about the consequences you are currently using.

Stop giving her the option to disobey you.

💯 agree, then it becomes a slapping competition.
She'll get there OP, she just needs more understanding and direction.
It'll be worth it in the end. 💓

Hitting a sibling would be the area to focus on, and worry less about the other stuff. She’s 7, so still quite young. I’d probably talk to her at a quieter time and say when you hit someone it hurts. You wouldn’t like it if they did that to you. You mustn’t hurt other people.

Then in the moment you repeat that message, and separate them. Maybe the natural consequence is that they can’t play with their sibling until they have calmed down and must come and help you (or another adult) with some (possibly very boring) task that you’re doing.

A natural consequence would be her sister hitting her back. Or her sister refusing to talk or play with her, or refusing to share any of her things.

It feels to me like she is on an 'any attention is good attention' track. By putting on the wrong thing, by hitting etc she is getting your attention in telling her off, threatening her with consequences, negotiating with her, whilst her better behaved siblings are getting less attention. What worked for us is when my daughter said something I knew she was trying to provoke a reaction, I just said 'ok' and walked away and engaged in an activity with a sibling. She was 'aren't you going to say anything' and I said 'no I'm not'. An argument takes 2 people and if you don't engage it generally stops much quicker

I have two well-behaved, compliant children and one strong willed determined one (although mine is a boy and the youngest). They are close in age like yours.

I definitely found that I had to parent him differently. He "got away" with stuff that the other two wouldn't have, because otherwise I'd have been fighting with him all the time! I focused on the big things (eg hitting) and let the smaller stuff go. I guess it was still fair in the sense that for some reason he seemed to find it harder to follow rules which came naturally to his older brother and sister. So in a way I was rewarding the effort rather than the result. Lots of praise and telling him I loved him.

Could she have her own room and the other two share? Would that remove a source of conflict?

My DC are all teenagers now. The youngest is 15yo and he is genuinely amazing. Everyone loves him - adults and kids - he's a natural leader but also kind. All that tricky stuff has become a force for good. Hopefully it will be the same for your DD.

Thank you for that advice. I too am very quiet and probably a bit of a people pleaser to fit in but I do admire her bold character and confidence.
She’ll definitely go far in life because nothing will stand in her way and of course I’d never want to break that spirit, it’s who she is.

And what would you say a natural consequence for hitting her sister would be? Because picking battles is one thing but this needs to stop

I don't have 3, so this might not be on the right track, but finding out why she hit her sister, and then talking to say 'Is that a suitable way of asking her to stop X? Hurting her and making her angry? Hitting someone who's smaller than you (I assume) and just feels scared? We don't hit because of frustration, and none of you, absolutely none of you, get to do that.'

When this carried on with someone I knew aged about 12 (and much stronger by then), their parents provided punchable pillows and cheap vests to be able to rip off so that frustration could be taken out on those, not people - but in that case, one parent was indeed also being very threatening to their kids when stressed, unfortunately.

I could have written this post myself! The McDonald's situation is very true, it's like they'd rather cut off their nose to spite their face, isn't it? My heart goes out to you because I know exactly how draining and heartbreaking it is, when you feel like you're constantly at war.
I've been there with my strong-willed DD, and honestly, it nearly broke me at times and I hate DD missing out on things just because they won't back down, and then feeling like a terrible mum for following through, which I always do!
I found this Twinkl resource that helped: Supporting a Child with Oppositional Defiant Disorder - A Guide for Parents. My DD doesn't have ODD but the strategies helped.
The biggest lightbulb moment for me was realising that I needed to change the way I was approaching the situation. My DD is literally wired differently, she needs to feel like she has some control or she will fight me on everything. Once I started offering choices instead of ultimatums, things got so much better.
Hang in there - you're doing better than you think you are. ❤️

Give in on what you can to reduce the power struggle. Dressing appropriately is a learning curve so it's fine for her to make mistakes. I would have said "Ok, I'll put the other skirt in your bag in case you want to change into it because you're uncomfortable". I've sent my eldest to school in thick trousers on a sweltering day with shorts in his bag and, surprise, surprise, when I picked him up he'd changed into the shorts. He's learnt from stuff like this that I have his back, and that makes him listen to me more than always arguing would.

I'd be clear that you don't necessarily disagree with her when you refuse to hear her out, but sometimes she has to fall in line with the "mission". Or as we put it in our house, "you may have a point but now is not the time to make it". I've explained to my older DC, who is also 7 (LO still a toddler), that some times of the day are real "pressure points" when Mummy can get a bit stressed and doesn't have time to argue or discuss things. So it's not that I'm disregarding what he's saying or what he wants - for example, to try some new clothes on - it's just that now is not a good time for it as we've all got to be focused on the "mission", which is getting out to school on time. But if he wants to chat after school or feels upset or hard done by, there will be more time for it then.

Can I ask, when you collect her today, is she going to find the no Mcdonalds thing frustrating?

I really hate when people jumpt to ND, but I have to tell you that your DD sounds to me like she could have ADHD and I can tell you from experience, that the process has to be different.

So, in DS' case, the clothing thing could 100% happen here. But here's what's happening for him when he was a bit younger (still hapens now - he's 14 - but he is learning and adapting so not as bad. eg last week he didn't want to take a jumper. I insisted he at least FETCH a jumper. surprise surprise, he did it. And then wore it!).

1 When he puts the [skirt] on, he is not thining of consequences or impacts because ADHD brains often do not have that skill ie "this [skirt] does not fit which means it will be uncomfortable or mum will want me to change." is just not a thought process they have.

2 When I tell him to change the [skirt], the effort of that feels insurmountable. I know it's not. You know it's not. He truly does NOT understand that. For him, it IS. [This has been really hard for me and Dh to get our heads around, DH in particular]

3 Children with ADHD hear "no" and are told off significantly more than their peers. This can have a variety of effects: they ignore it as it's just background noise / they are resentful becuase "nothing I do is right" etc. This makes them dig their heels in more or simply ignore the no.

4 The Mcdonalds consequences is almost pointless and makes you the baddie - you made a promise to them, and now you have taken it away. That resentment becomes front of mind. As importantly, in some cases, DS simply would not understand that when I say, "No Mcdonalds later" this really means that. I mean, he understands the word, but that forward looking concept is beyond him.

So in a situation like this, I might go and collect the correct [skirt] get him to put it on downstairs. I might say, if that really isn't working, "fine - but remember this when you are uncomfortable all day". Consequences need to be immediate and work best if they are directly related - eg he is uncomfortable or someone comments at school.

At a bigger level, we started putting his colthes out the night before from when he was quite young and he took over doing it himself as he just found it so much less stressful. I occassionally wonder past, realise he's got the same shirt he's beeing wearing for 3 days and quietly swap it out without him even noticing!

My DD6 is a bit like this. I was at my wits end. My mum thought it was funny, because she’s exactly like I was.

My best advice is pick your battles and try and use her strong will to your advantage. I got my DD a cat, and it’s her job to look after her. Obviously if she forgets to feed her ect. I step in, but that’s only happened once. A bit of responsibility is good for these kids.

When she is being a real little terror I take solace in the fact that she won’t take any shit from men when she’s older. That keeps me sane. God help her future husband (or wife). And maybe one day she will have to deal with a mini her and I can laugh a little bit.

Natural consequences work where the action isn't harmful. They're not appropriate for violence

Hitting requires dealing with in the moment in a full on stern way.

If you let natural consequences deal with most of the issues, when you react with authority to something, it's not in your usual pattern of behaviour and has a greater impact

McDonald's seems like an irrelevant punishment for clothing. And you've shot yourself in the foot here by taking away an opportunity to have 1 on 1 time with her.

As others have said, pick your battles, let her deal with consequences of her actions (appropriately), and try and let go a little bit. The more you push, the more she will push back.

Having a consistent punishment will also be effective. Random and various punishments won't work. So for example, no screen time as a consistent punishment rather than a mix.

Mum to a strong willed daughter. No advice. Just solidarity because it is SO HARD. I know she will be a kick ass adult one day but she is currently kicking my ass and I'm frequently envious of those parents who have compliant, "easy" children.

I haven’t had chance to read whole thread so apologies if this has all been covered. I’ve been the daughter and the parent in this situation now with my own DC. My DM was very controlling when I was growing up really up to my early 40s when I just had enough. She has very strong views of what is right and it’s always got to be her way. She parented my brother completely differently. I could not understand many of our battles because I just could not understand how a lot of my decisions impacted her in any way. My own DC is very strong willed but we have discovered has a number of additional needs (not obvious ones) and looking back felt she had some control at home whereas school was a highly confusing and difficult place for her. With her we have learnt to pick our battles. We do parent her differently to our neurotypical son which sometimes feels unfair but actually they’re totally different children with different needs for support, encouragement and behavioural consequences. I would say check you’re not being controlling, pick your battles and see if she has any processing issues or things like dyslexia which may make her feel out of control at school which is why she sticks heels in at home.

Slightly different perspective again here but my DSis was as you describe when we were growing up. I was the older, quieter, compliant one. I saw what I perceived as my sister getting away with poor ( and sometimes violent and aggressive) behaviour and felt it to be so so unfair. She was wild as a teenager and they were very tough times. I don’t have much to do with her as an adult.

To be more specific, if you want a script for this. For example she wanted a toy her sister was playing with. Sister said no. Bit of an argument back and forth, then she hits sister.

You get in front of her at her eye level. Hold her arms by her sides if she's going to hit you. You say with as much authority as you can muster in a slow, calm and firm voice "I will not allow you to hit your sister. You can feel angry you didn't get what you want. But you may not hit anyone. Let's go calm down" and you take her away from everyone else. Go to her room or the kitchen or the garden. Be with her as she shows you how angry she is. Don't bother trying to talk it through. The only thing she needs to hear at this point is "it's ok to be angry. It's not ok to hit". When she's calm ask her what she thinks about it all. Ask her how she's going to put things right with her sister. Get her to figure it out.

Obviously she needs to apologise in some way (it might not be a verbal "I'm sorry") it might be a hug or an offer to use something of hers. Again, give her more control/power/indepence at putting things right. You can scaffold this if she needs it. (Point out that sister feels upset, has a mark from being hit, won't want to play with her in future. Ask her her how she would feel if the roles were reversed etc). But if it comes from her in a genuine attempt at restitution, it will mean a lot more than a forced "I'm sorry" said through gritted teeth and it will have more impact than removing treats.

Then you should have put it away somewhere else till she needed it, as you know what she's like

And how about turning it around?

If this happens, you'll get this treat Rather than always taking away

So the youngest child has her own room but the older two share? That must be difficult for middle if she struggles with tidiness. And annoying for eldest!

My parents compared us a lot. It was very unhelpful. We've got completely different strengths and weaknesses.

I think the book 10 Days to a Less Defiant Child would help you (Bernstein).

Do you give your DC pocket money? For hitting, I'd explain that it is illegal and considered so bad that adults who hit and are violent to each other go to jail. And the reason for that is that no one should be afraid of physical violence from others. How would she feel if you hit her?

Since she is a child, she won't go to jail because society doesn't hold children fully responsible for their actions since they are young and still learning self-control. But it's your job as her parent to help her grow up properly and to protect her sister from violent behaviour and so you will impose a consequence for hitting and other violence, and she will have to pay a "victim surcharge" out of her pocket money every time she hits, which will go to her sister to make her feel better. You can explain to her what a victim surcharge is, in terms of people who commit crimes having to pay something towards remedying the consequences.

OP I don’t think you’ve responded to any of the suggestions / comments yet about possible neurodiversity - is there a reason you’re avoiding this or is it not something you’ve ever considered?

when I read your post it was absolutely screaming PDA at me. I struggled with your struggles for years with my own daughter (now 11), but we now know she has AuDHD with a PDA profile. It’s not that she don’t want to do these things - she CAN’T. She sees many demands / requests / expectations and even compliments as an assault on her autonomy and her nervous system goes into fight or flight mode.

this stops her doing stuff that she wants to because she simply can’t do it. Her body doesn’t let her.

i recommend you check out PDA resources such as At Peace Parenting on Facebook / insta and I suspect you find that much of the content strikes a chord.

I’ve had to radically alter my parenting approach to communicate with my daughter in a way which works for both of us. It’s not easy but we’re on a better track now.

i would also advise looking into PDA before ODD as ODD seems to be a much more outdated and negative view of some of the behaviours which go with PDA. The resource I mentioned above will help you to potentially reframe what you’re experiencing as a nervous system disability rather than defiance / bad behaviour etc.

it might also be worth asking your daughter in a moment of calm whether she simply didn’t want to take the skirt off, or perhaps whether she DID want to take it off once you told her why, but perhaps she found that she was unable to do so. Often my daughter is in floods of tears telling me that she wanted to do the thing but her body wouldn’t let her.

I’m not saying this is definitely what’s going on here but I think it is worth considering. If you can spend 30 mins even just checking out PDA, and maybe try to implement some of the strategies in the background to see if they help, I think it would probably help to turn your frustration and your own stubbornness (no judging - I’ve been there!) into empathy.

either way - sending you strength!

You should give her the space and opportunity to back down without being embarrassed about doing so.
So, if she makes the wrong decision but made it because she wanted to win the battle of wills, you need to let her know that it's ok to change her mind later without losing face.

I have a 5 year old DD who sounds very similar to your DD OP. She is the oldest of two. She was a very challenging toddler and was violent with us/ other children until she was about 4.5. She’s much better now but still never, ever does what she is told which is really difficult. You are getting a lot of comments on here from people that don’t have children like this so just don’t get it.

Have you read the book “the explosive child?” It has good insight into defiant children. I practice low demand parenting, for my own sanity as much as trying to allow her to have some agency and not always be telling her off. She cannot do anything dangerous or destructive and she must get dressed on time to leave the house, have a bath when asked etc. Other than that I don’t come down hard on her much. I am conscious of not breaking her spirit as she is a bright, independent fun kid and I can see her growing into a confident adult that knows their own mind.

I think that’s all you can do with a child like this. Consistent, firm boundaries that the child knows about on repeat and don’t sweat the small stuff. One PP said to give them independence over as much as they can be responsible for in terms of age appropriateness etc. This is great advice and I will definitely take this on board. My DD likes to be in control so this will help her I think. My DD is also quite anxious too about change and not knowing what’s coming next so I try to make sure to prepare her in advance for what we are doing at the weekend, any changes in school routine etc.

I hate to be the poster that armchair- diagnoses anyone but you might consider whether ADHD is a possibility. I’m watching and waiting to see how my DD gets on when she starts school in September to see whether a diagnosis is worth pursuing

I had one of these. I lost her as a small child in a supermarket once and when I finally found her and said I was so worried that I’d lost her she said well I knew where I was ! Also refused to wear socks for an entire winter. I gave up on that one.
She’s always been independent and confident, and is now a fabulous eloquent , young woman who is pleasant and charming but takes no shit !