Surviving life with a strong willed daughter

[heartsandtears]

Dd is 7 and as the title suggests she is very strong willed and as a result misses out on so much through consequences of this.
She will lose almost all promised treats and never gets any money, she loses out on play dates, screen time all while her siblings enjoy these things because she simply will not do as she’s told.
This morning for example I had promised to take her to McDonald’s after school because her sister was going home with a friend for dinner so we were going to have a treat together, she walked down the stairs in the school skirt I bought her for next winter which is currently too big, I asked her to put her dress on and she refused and I told her if she didn’t change into her school dress she wouldn’t be going to McDonalds so she decided she’d wear the too big skirt and not go to McDonald’s.
This won’t be because she doesn’t want to go it’s because she will not back down.
I want us to have a good relationship but I feel like she misses out on so much and everything seems to be a battle of wills and I just want to love her and enjoy things together but she just will not ever do as she’s told almost of a matter of principle and will eventually lose out on everything she’s looking forward to.
Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can get along with her and get her to do as she’s told?
She is so stubborn and wilful she’ll happily take any consequences as long as she gets her way.

I’d throw a curveball and stop putting up any resistance to anything that isn’t causing any harm. She was probably expecting the exact reaction she got from you this morning. I’d have just said “nice skirt. Right, time to go” and carried on with normal routine and gone to McDonald’s after school still. So she looks a bit daft all day. Natural consequences.
Having two “good” siblings has probably made her feel her only “thing” is pushing boundaries and being the tricky one.
She might be more inclined to fall in line when she thinks it’s her choice to do so, not because you want it. The danger of going head to head with her is the teenage years let’s be real. If she sees you as an adversary that’s when it’s really a problem.

FWIW I read somewhere once that more “strong-willed” children are less likely to give in to peer pressure or let people deter them from their goals. Just try not to present yourself on the opposite team too much or she’ll push you even further.

It’s hard to know what to do to get it right. I only reward with money to make it fair on the ones who do the chores.
I sometimes think I am too hard on her especially when I remove privileges and treats but then I need her to listen and do as she’s told.
She hits her older sister sometimes, and sometimes me usually out of spite because she or I hasn’t given in to her and I need consequences to a) show dd1 that it’s been addressed and 2) to act as a deterrent.

Let her wear the skirt! Draw the line at only the big stuff

It was the example you chose so it must have felt the most aggravating to you. Let her wear the skirt. She’ll learn.

If kids are “strong willed” (and notice this label is almost exclusively given to girls 🤔) it’s because there are too many rules. Instead of thinking of whether she is doing what she is told, reframe it as, is she doing what’s appropriate? Are the rules important? Does it matter if she wears the skirt? Does it matter if her room is tidy? It’s her room. We have a rule that you keep communal spaces tidy, but your room is your room and as long as it isn’t a health hazard, the door can be closed on the mess if I don’t want to see it. I have never once insisted my daughter tidies her room. As a teenager she decides sometimes she needs to do it and sometimes it is a complete mess. If you take away the little rules she sees no sense in, she is more likely to follow the big ones which are important.

As for your other children, the one thing my mum did which has messed all of us up for life, was insist we all had to be treated the same. It wasn’t fair, it was the same. My two siblings and I are such different people that trying to have us behave the same way, follow the same rules was ridiculous. I was the smart one so sitting down each night to do homework was easy for me. My sister was not, and for her those times were hell. We were forced to eat the same food for breakfast every morning whether we were hungry or not.

Have a house meeting and draw up a set of half a dozen house rules, let the kids have input. Chat with your children as a group about how you are all different people and need different incentives. Focus on rewarding the correct behaviour rather than punishing the wrong behaviour.

Do not, under any circumstances, try to destroy the strong will your daughter has. She will grow up to be bold and fearless and strong and that will serve her well.

I have a similar daughter - interestingly also a middle child, which I do think feeds into it somewhat. She’s not the cute ‘baby’, she’s not the cool independent one, so she has to find her own space and voice.

definitely agree with PP that increasing one on one time was key for us. Not to then also increase one on one time with others (and end up falling over). But dedicated hot chocolate dates, taking just her to the supermarket with you, planning in an activity in the holidays just for you and her - these things all made a massive difference to her behaviour, I think because she felt ‘seen’ which was a large driver behind the oppositional attitude.

other thing is definitely to pick your battles. After being entrenched in a 5 day argument with her, I realised I needed to rethink and let a lot of small stuff go. So with the skirt, remark casually that you wonder if she might feel hot in it and whether that will be less comfortable for play time; if she doesn’t take the bait, let her go in it. She’ll never admit you were right, btw, but she probably will be too hot and uncomfortable and will be more likely to listen to the next casual remark you make!

lastly - speaking as a similar personality - you have to find ways to help her come back down from the hill she gets herself up. A big thing is pride and not wanting to be seen to be wrong, so don’t push her to acknowledge she’s wrong in eg a low impact skirt type situation. Don’t make a big deal, distract her with other stuff (colouring is a big plus for us) and allow her to come out of the strop by herself - then don’t comment on it, just welcome her back like there was no interruption. That helps her to understand the world isn’t ending when she’s wrong.

Yes I was really looking forward to McDonald’s just the two of us. She loves to bake too and that doesn’t interest anyone else so it’s our little thing to do together alone and what we’ll do tonight.
She’s so relaxed when we cook and really opens up to me and then when her sisters come back from different things after school or whatever they’ve been doing she changes.

You’re conflating big things with small things though and you’re now trapped in a battle of stubbornness, except she’s a child and not entirely logical and if she was never getting treats anyway she doesn’t feel like she has lost anything but she has got some attention.
Big things like hitting her sister or you absolutely need addressing, little things like choosing what school skirt she is going to wear should just be dropped.
You’re picking these little battles just to prove you’re in charge but it doesn’t help and only escalates her behaviour and your frayed relationship.
Does she get much 1 on 1 time with you?

I sometimes think I am too hard on her especially when I remove privileges and treats but then I need her to listen and do as she’s told.

But she isn’t doing as she’s told so removing treats isn’t working. The only thing that works with my DD is really building the relationship with her and doing things with her. She doesn’t care about losing pocket money or privileges, because she knows if she doesn’t lose it for X, she will for Y so why worry about it.

Simply put traditional choice and consequences parenting doesn’t work for her so I need to do things differently to suit her personality. We have some very clear hard lines, eg no hitting, and lots of negotiation and doing stuff together.

Is she the middle? That’s an unenviable position. Be careful how you deal with that.

You’re setting her up to fail. Sounds like you just didn’t want to take her to McDonald’s because why was your first though to threaten to cancel it because she was wearing a skirt that was too big? Where was the link?

I bet she thinks you weren’t going to take her anyway and that she always gets punished and treats taken away so what’s the point

I agree with others about picking your battles. I totally understand that if she doesn’t tidy her room she doesn’t get pocket money, her siblings manage it so they get the pocket money (a good life lesson) but I wouldn’t threaten taking away things like the trip to McDonald’s as it probably won’t work. Maybe break the cleaning her room thing down into stages? My daughters totally panic if I say ‘tidy your room’ as they just don’t know where to start, but if I say….”pick up the dirty clothes off your floor…..then put the pens away” they will do it. I also find using the word “no” or “don’t do that” makes a situation worse. So instead of saying “no you’re not wearing that skirt” maybe say “do you think you would be more comfortable in something that fits?” If she still doesn’t want to change the skirt then I would just let her get on with it, it’s not going to hurt, she will just look stupid and get fed up of hoiking it up all day, then she will realise she made the wrong choice.

I have two of these now 10 and 15. Taking stuff away or cancelling plans does not work. They’ll just miss out on all the good stuff — and I know, it’s exhausting. They also do not respond to rewards — which means you end up feeling like they just take and take, because for them, treats don’t equal good behaviour you can't make then behave with a bribe.
One thing that helps me is not saying “if...” — I say “when.” So, when you have done X, we will do Y. It's presentation as more of a plan that a bribe.
I also realised that because we were always battling, they never got to have any nice time with me — and that this couldn’t be planned stuff. I needed to just go and be in their space a bit, see what they were doing, what they were interested in — praise it a little, etc. So I wasn’t always shouting. It is really hard - so good luck.

Ive got a dd like this. You need to pick your battles. The school skirt was honesty not a battle I'd pick. The natural consequences of wearing it would be that it was too big & annoyed her at school. I wouldn't have stopped mcdonalds for that.

Absolutely have boundaries but don't be so over the top with them. Safety, teeth cleaning & reading were mine at a similar age & she suffered the natural consequences outside of those (being cold or wet as she wouldn't take a coat to school etc).

If you carry on punishing for minor issues you will wreck any chance of an positive relationship as she gets older & she will resent her siblings as she will view you as preferring them as they still get treats.

My DD is now an adult & we get on great & she has calmed down a bit!!

Thank you for this, I hadn’t looked at it that way before and always made sure they were treated the same so they all knew there were no favourites mainly because there is a lot of rivalry between them.
I would agree with the untidy room if she had her own room but as she shares with her tidy sister and the mess is hers I don’t think that’s fair when friends come over and her sister does have pride in her room.

I have a DD like this, who is now a very difficult teen, and i have been told stuff like this for years. It doesn’t work. What do you do if you have a child who laughs in the face of “you do what you’re told full stop” and just doesn’t? My DD would simply refuse to get changed. If I told her she couldn’t go to school in the skirt, she’d refuse to go to school. If I imposed consequence, she’d take the consequences rather than do as she’s told. Forever. What am I going to do, pick up a teenager and carry her to school?

I totally get how OP feels, it’s exhausting and sad constantly dealing with this and not being able to just relax and enjoy life with your child because you have to either impose consequences or just accept refusals and bad behaviour. Whatever you do, nothing works. And other parents say things like “I just wouldn’t stand for that!” Aaargh! I’m not, but it doesn’t work!

OP mine has now been with CAMHS for a while and has a diagnosis of ADHD, though there are still behaviour issues we at least have some support and help. She still struggles a lot with doing as she’s told or just behaving reasonably and I have to be really firm and on it all the time. But as PPs have said, being strong-willed is an advantage for the future and she has many great qualities, so I try to nurture and praise those. School is a disaster but she has great friendships and hobbies. She’ll have to find her own way and it might be a roundabout way but as I have been advised by some older parents “just keep loving her”. You do need the boundaries as well even if she kicks against them, but try to grab the opportunities to reward her, spend time with her, reassure her you love her, etc. as well.

it is very hard and I totally get your frustration.

The thing is different kids need different approaches. If I tried to parent my two the same way there would be mayhem, most of the time they need completely opposite approaches.

In terms of her bedroom, if you have two tidy girls would it make more sense for them to share given they’re all relatively close in age? Sometimes managing the household to just avoid issues arising in the first place is more helpful than constantly having the same fights.

Take her to McDonald's then. The threats and consequences are not working, so you don't lose anything by going back on your threat and resetting this afternoon.

Focus on building connection with her so she wants to get along. She also may have ADHD or similar, so will need a different approach and/or body doubling to get things done.

Don't miss out on one-on-one time with your 7 year old just because she wanted to wear a big skirt. In 10 years time when you know longer have a little girl, will you be happy that you refused to spend precious time with your little one for that reason?

Build the relationship/ connection. Read Raising Good Humans or similar books that focus on a connection-led parenting and discpline style (rather than threat based).

I did want to go to McDonald’s with her but you’re right about how she feels she often says after a consequence that there’s no point being good now and then behaviour worsens.
I do like to give her the chance to earn back some of the lost treats and today she had a choice if she put her dress on before we left then we’d still go but she refused.

Ahh I recognise this little girl so much as a mum of a strong willed middle child! I used to tell people she was so stubborn she would one day rule the world but we just had to make it through raising her first! She is now 20 and still incredibly stubborn and strong willed but I see it as a really positive trait. I agree with others and don’t sweat the smaller stuff. Let her make some decisions and don’t get into battles you really don’t want to lose. It just makes everyone miserable.

It’s very tricky op. One of mine was very strong-willed and I wasn’t particularly good at reacting on the spot. It’s hard to think of creative solutions right there and then when confronted with defiance, usually when you are up against it time-wise too.

But I think you leveraging the McD’s trip in exchange for compliance was the issue here. The two things have nothing to do with one another, I think you could have pretended not to be bothered about the skirt and said something like, “sure wear it if you want but it’s designed for winter not summer so you may be very hot in it today and also it’s too big so you risk it falling down and showing your pants in public ha ha (try to inject humour). But you decide as we need to get in the car in four minutes! I will grab your summer dress in case you need it when you get there.”

Or words to the same effect? Just tackle each issue as it arises and show her that everything doesn’t have to be a battle. Give her more autonomy in the decision-making and let her suffer the natural
consequences of (a) being too hot (b) being embarrassed by it falling down (c) being in trouble with the teachers.

Ask every time what is the emotion behind the defiant words and behaviour? In this instance it’s a fair bet that once she arrived at school, she will want to be dressed exactly the same way as her peers. So try and dig down to why she is doing this. It’s probably because it’s a very effective way of getting your attention.

She sounds bright so she wants to challenge the rules, or she wants to get your full attention, or both. Try and engineer it so that you pick up on every positive thing she does however small, so she gets your attention in other, positive ways. And go out and enjoy that one-on-one time with her. She needs it more than ever! Otherwise your interactions will become a spiral of negativity. Good luck.

Edited to add that a good technique is to make yourself breathe four times before responding when she is really grinding your gears. Dont react in the moment. It’s not easy though. But don’t let her push you in to equally reactive responses. Slow everything down. Detach a bit. Pause and consider before responding. That takes the power out of her immediate demands.

One thing I sometimes do with mine is ask her “what would you do? If you were the mum and your daughter wouldn’t do what she was told even when it was important? What do you think the answer is?” It helps her step out of her “refuse to cooperate at all costs” mode and sometimes she has suggestions, she sometimes says things like it’s the way I talk that makes her angry and says I could phrase things differently, or says that it’s not fair that she has to do things that adults don’t, and we can have a chat about it - at least that helps her to feel heard and can sometimes help.

Some children do not respond to the reward/punishment model. My eldest doesn’t.

BUT she has a very strong sense of what is right and fair. This means she will do things she thinks are important (like homework) without me nagging. And for the things I care about but she doesn’t (like tidying) I can often get her to do them by appealing to her sense of fairness. I point out all the things I did for her that day and ask her to do this for me in return. This often works.

If necessary I go further and say, eg, if she leaves her clothes on the floor I will stop doing her laundry because it’s a waste of my time if she’s going to leave her stuff in a crumpled heap. So yes this is using a consequence but it’s a clearly related consequence. Again this appeals to her sense of fairness and works a lot better than a totally unrelated consequence.

I wonder if your DD might be the same? She needs to see the logic of why it’s fair for her to do X?

As an aside on rooms, would you consider putting the two younger ones in together ? Your eldest is going to want her own room soon as puberty hits and she gets to secondary and has new friends over. This doesn’t fix the mess issue of course but at least it means your middle DD can’t rely on older sister to do all the tidying.

Forget the threats, forget her making it up to you. You need to make it up to her - what will you do to make up for how you handled the situation?

Try see it from her eyes - she has put on a skirt which presumably was in a place she could easily access, and has thought, how lovely, I'd like to choose to wear this. But here comes mum putting a pointless spanner in the works, and telling her that her easily accessible school uniform choice is not a good enough choice. And then mum now tells her she won't spend time with her unless she follows orders like a sheep. Your daughter will be hearing that you only like her and want to spend time with her when she does exactly as you say.

She is hearing that she has upset you and will need to do things to be good enough to spend time with you. She will need to become a better person. The next stage of your daughter's behaviour will be that rather than externalise things (lash out at you and her sisters), she will internalise it. She will tell herself she is not good enough, she hates herself, she doesn't want to be alive. Because that is the message she hears - the way she is naturally, is not good enough or acceptable. I know this because I've been there and sadly got to the second stage, and changed approach. We are still working on building up the self esteem as years of being criticised and constantly told off really damages a child's confidence.

Please just take her to McDonald's.

I think you need to stop with the consequences as they arent working. In affect you are telling her - i only love you if you do as i say. You need to accept her for who she is, which is different from your other children. Take her to McDonalds because you want to, not because she has been “good”.

I could tell this would be a middle child situation before you even mentioned it. I think you need to make it a priority for her to have her own room/space ASAP as I suspect she is struggling with her place in the family and this is her way of trying to assert herself. There’s a chance she feels she’s just been slotted in with the older one especially if the older one is getting treats and praise for being tidy, a room of her own that you can make a big fuss of would really help this.

My parents were “consequences” parents and I didn’t make me like or respect them, nor did it make me behave. It was quite confusing to me as a child that they would invent arbitrary (to me) rules and then remove things I liked or quality time for not following them. I think a huge part of parenting is about teaching your children via natural consequences instead of just demanding you do what they say. I agree it made me think it was pointless behaving as I’d always lose the treat for something, I could even tell when it was going to happen and to be frank the removal of the treat would be to do with my parents frustration and inability to regulate their own emotions. It made a small issue (the skirt) into a nuclear (to a 7 year old) level punishment.

If you give some more examples of situations, people can probably help you with adopting a more natural consequences approach.