To think that not all doctors are badly paid - junior ones, yes, but not all?

[MyAmusedOpalCrab]

It’s often said that doctors in the NHS are underpaid but is that really true across the board? Junior doctors, yes, absolutely. But consultants, GPs and some specialists earn six figures. AIBU to think that while the pay structure may be flawed, it’s not accurate to say all doctors are struggling financially?

That’s quite some strawman you have there OP.

Did anyone ever claim that all doctors are struggling financially?

For their level of expertise, the responsibility and the importance of their work they are all grossly underpaid imo

They are probably underpaid vs what they could be earning in the private sector in careers that require a similar level of intelligence and study / focus / commitment.

I think that doctors in the regions probably do quite well on average vs cost of living, compared to doctors in eg London.

I would say that there is a more general theme that everyone’s quality of life has decreased somewhat in some regards over the last 20,30,50 years - and that’s in part why so many doctors feel so hard done by.

The big house, private school, ski holidays, single income… doctors were doing that in recent memory, the idea of it now is laughable really. Albeit you can apply that to many professions.

Its not so much about what they are paid, its about whether that equals the level of responsibility and the workload.

Consultants asked for, and have just been awarded, a 4% pay rise, taking them to between 105k - 135k.
They appear to still not be happy with this and are threatening to strike alongside junior doctors later in the year.

www.independent.co.uk/news/health/doctors-strike-pay-bma-nhs-government-b2773649.html

That's nearly as much as the prime minister ffs.

ok so a consultant anaesthetist, or urologist or nephrologist. Age 50. How much would be fair?

It’s something I’ve seen implied a lot, especially when blanket statements are made about “doctors being underpaid” without specifying junior doctors. I agree not everyone says it that way but I’ve definitely come across that generalisation. My point was just that the situation isn’t the same across the board and it feels like that gets ignored sometimes.

Are they claiming to be struggling financially, or do they just want to have the same pay and working conditions they would have if they were in the private sector, or in Australia?

How many hours do they work, though? I was recently under the care of a consultant who saw me sometimes before his surgical work (at 7am) and sometimes after (at 7pm) and he worked Bank Holidays, weekends, all of it. Per hour it probably doesn’t come out to much.

Do you actually know what a 'junior doctor' is OP?

It's a total misnomer and the term should be 'doctor'.

Are they claiming to be struggling financially, or do they just want to have the same pay and working conditions they would have if they were in the private sector, or in Australia?

It’s unrealistic to expect public sector pay to be comparable with the private sector in any profession.

So you don’t really have a point, do you?

Lots of doctors struggle financially. It’s a fact.

Some doctors earn very well, but most could earn more abroad or in the private sector.

Do you want people who are incredibly skilled to move out of the NHS or move abroad?

The prime minister is not paid at all well for what they do - I don’t think that’s a good benchmark to have.

£105-135k is a nice wage but not really exceptional, which given the level of responsibility and training probably feels quite light to them.

Why?

Judging whether someone is 'underpaid' is almost impossible really because what's the benchmark? What are the contributing factors?

Doctors are underpaid compared to premiership footballers, but overpaid compared to carers, for example.

It's very difficult to determine someone's objective worth. I think what they mean is they earn less than they would like and less than they could earn elsewhere (in another country, privately or by changing profession).

Most junior doctors do a 48 hour week. Their long days and night shifts are effectively 13 hours (hand over at each end of the 12 hours and grab a drink and a butty if you can).

Let's not even pretend that consultants don't earn plenty. Their nhs salary is just the baseline alongside private clinics, teaching, medical trials etc etc. Its the nurses and care workers that are grossly underpaid. Im not a nurse btw!

Yes - I know that “junior doctor” includes everyone from newly qualified to quite experienced doctors and that it’s a structural term rather than about age or skill. I do agree that it’s a confusing label but it’s still the term widely used, especially when talking about pay disputes and working conditions. Either way, my point was about how pay varies within the profession and how that often gets overlooked in public discussion.

I never said that doctors don’t deserve fair pay or that we should risk losing them to other countries or the private sector. My point was simply that it’s misleading when people talk about “doctors being underpaid” as though it applies equally across the board. Junior doctors are clearly underpaid for what they do but consultants, GPs, and specialists earning six figures are in a very different financial position. Acknowledging that doesn’t undermine anyone’s right to advocate for better conditions, it just adds nuance to the conversation.

To become a consultant in for example anaesthetics, you do minimum 5 years at medical school, 2 years foundation training, 3 years core training, 4 years registrar training. You generally move hospitals yearly from f1 until your final year of training, where the absolutely earliest you can be is 32. I’ve never heard of anyone finish then because it’s a struggle at each level to get a job at the next stage. Surgeons and other specialties do PhDs too (another 3-4 years), because you need them to get the consultants posts as they’re so competitive. Do the maths here as to how much that affects your life, emotionally and financially. You pay for all your exams, unlike other professions. Again for anaesthetics, this is over £2.5k (if you pass all of them first time, which in anaesthetics is 30-40% of candidates). You then pay your indemnity, your registration fee, your royal college fee (all mandatory) and generally you pay to be a member of a union too (not mandatory but very important). As a core trainee this is over £100 per month in mandatory fees. To be just registered with the GMC 5 years post qualification is £500 a year. It’s much much more for consultants. We get relocation expenses that are capped and we are then taxed on. So aren’t much use

when you have done this amount of training (unlike the prime minister), people expect a salary reflective of their level of skill. And for the current cost of living and the level of responsibility taken on per shift, no the salary is not currently adequate. I don’t expect anyone who hasn’t done that training to understand. What everyone does need to understand is we are losing consultants in droves to other countries where they are paid much much better. If you don’t increase the salaries and keep up, you will lose good doctors and have inadequate numbers to keep UK hospitals safe.

It includes everyone that is not at Consultant level and the new term is Resident Doctor after the strike. As the term Junior seemed to imply that they were not actually doctors. Some even thought they were students.

No, nobody does.
Qualified doctors earn well and everybody knows that.

I think that’s a really fair way of putting it. You’re right - “underpaid” is a relative term and it depends on what you’re comparing to.

My original point was just that sometimes public conversations lump all doctors together, when in reality there’s a big range depending on role, seniority and setting. I’ve got no issue with doctors wanting better pay or conditions, it just feels like we lose nuance when we talk about the profession as though all doctors are struggling equally.

Who is staying all doctors are struggling financially? Is this hearsay or you have evidence? Literally no one is saying that 😂

Because public sector jobs have vast pensions and excellent job security. Since when did you hear of hospital consultants being made redundant? This will only happen if they keep up with unaffordable pay demands.