To think that not all doctors are badly paid - junior ones, yes, but not all?

[MyAmusedOpalCrab]

It’s often said that doctors in the NHS are underpaid but is that really true across the board? Junior doctors, yes, absolutely. But consultants, GPs and some specialists earn six figures. AIBU to think that while the pay structure may be flawed, it’s not accurate to say all doctors are struggling financially?

So we’ve established that nobody thinks all doctors are badly paid. In fact a lot of people think all doctors are over-paid. And most people think most consultants and some GPs are well paid.

I wonder what your motivation was for posting an obviously inaccurate and inflammatory first statement.

Pensions, if you hit the million pound cap and thats a problem for you then you are doing ok imo. Anyone collecting a public sector pension is massively advantaged, it really needs to be factored in. Plus junior doctors are just that, they don’t stay junior. I’m fine with doctors being well paid but I think they are being disingenuous about the whole package tbh, and the fact that consultants often do private work, which I also think is absolutely fine but people need to be transparent.

I have a friend who is a GP.
Her husband has never worked and she works 3 days a week. They have 3 dc (1 at uni, another going this year) and own their own house in the midlands.

I think anyone who can afford to do that is pretty well paid.
I do find it irritating when she goes on about how poorly paid they are, because it shows a disconnect with the real world.

I think nhs doctors will get higher pensions than professionals in the private sector.

That's nearly as much as the prime minister ffs.

Who is also massively underpaid for the level of responsibility. What a ridiculous comment.

for me the big question is does it pay enough, and have good enough conditions, and whatever else is attractive, to attract clever, competent 14 year olds looking at their gcse options to train and stay?

cos it’s the future pipeline that also matters.

The reality is it’s so complicated that those outside of medical practice really have no comprehension of the job, how the pay works, the level of responsibility, the emotional weight, the revalidation, the litigation, the social contract, the costs for exams, for indemnity, for the GMC, for stethoscopes, for revision banks, for missed parents evenings, for late pick ups and drop offs, for presenting at conferences, for maintaining CPD- it goes on.

It’s all complicated and it all stacks up to a job that is bloody difficult to do- working in a system that is actively working against you. Most doctors want to do well and can do well.
We don’t ascribe much value to them in the UK because they aren’t wealth generating and as time has gone on - that social contract of hard work now for good times later has been completely eroded. Your doctors are leaving university with the highest ever debt burden that may well endure throughout their working lives and are working in a system that is so overburdened and creaking that it is becoming increasingly difficult to do a good job for anyone in it. There will be mass unemployment of UK taxpayer trained doctors in August this year as long term workforce planning has been catastrophically misjudge and mishandled for years.

It’s just no longer worth it- not even for that maybe-one-day chance to earn 6 figures.

I completely agree. Whatever we think of current pay levels, the real test is whether medicine still looks like a viable, attractive path for smart, motivated young people.

If the workload, training demands and long-term pressures outweigh the benefits, that’s a serious pipeline issue. We need the best people to want to become doctors and stay once they’re in.

I said to someone today about it being underpaid….i think it is. Yes after many years with much additional work and study you can earn £120k, but you can get there much more easily and quickly in many private sector professions, without literally having peoples lives in your hands. I think medicine in this country is grassy underpaid and why NZ and Oz are full of our Drs!

I agree. DP earns this having no degree in the private sector. He’s responsible for running a department, but people won’t die if he’s having an off day. Imagine all those years of studying and debt just to get 100k. It sounds wow amazing to an average person (average wage), but it really isn’t that much in this climate, especially in bigger cities.

I think this is the key question. If you're a straight A student heading to a top university, you could probably get yourself a training contract to be a solicitor - and a lot of the City firms now pay starting salaries of six figures. Ditto most grad schemes will pay higher than a Drs salary, and with less training (and arguably less stress/not dealing with life-and-death situations).

Personally if you're a top student, I don't think medicine is a particularly attractive option anymore. And partly I think that's because it pays so much less than other careers you could go into

I really don't like the culture we've developed where people earn vastly more at the end of a career than at the start of it. It's younger people - the ones struggling to get on the housing ladder and/or trying to bring up children - who really need the money, not the ones close to retirement whose kids have flown the nest and are now living in homes with more space than they know what to do with.

It’s likely more of the issue that the pay of many doctors does not reflect the level of responsibility that they have.

I’m fully supportive of any strike action taken by doctors. They look after us, so the least we can do is show support as they fight for a fair pay.

So we should pay inexperienced staff at the start of their career more than experienced staff, who likely have additional qualifications?

You know you can buy a house for that yes?

I've never actually met a consultant who thinks he is underpaid but I live in a low cost of living area maybe that's why

I agree with this, I think the prime minster should be on a lot more and I think MP’s should be paid a lot more. Why would you leave a decent job to be an MP. I throughly dislike most MP’s but I really think we would get better quality candidates if the wages rose by quite a lot.

Consultants are actually underpaid when you think about the sacrifices they’ve made. Years of training, rotating, cpd, ridiculous hours, unpaid overtime.
I’ve got a mate who rents out a few Airbnbs and makes about the same as a consultant. Last year, £121k. No night shifts, no lives in their hands. Go figure.

You get paid according to what you bring to the table not by what you need.

Part time is a relative term. We tend to call it part time if a GP isn't working morning and afternoon five days a week. But, bear in mind GP practices are open 10 hours a day and almost all GPs will have admin to do outside of working hours - it's quite easy to do 36 hours a week over 3 days.

(from an ex GP who found working in general practice too awful to manage and now works as a speciality doctor in an inpatient setting earning around £60,000 - despite having 20 years experience and a masters degree in the speciality I work in)

I have found some of the younger ones as bad or even worse than the older ones.

I don't agree with the old trope that old school consultants are at their golf club or the local private hospital. I believe the lateness is more to do with the culture of the NHS and a lack of respect for patients.

I have never had to chase my solicitor or accountant and their staff have never, ever been rude to me. If they don't do a good job, they know they will lose business and may not be paid.

When DH was practicing at the Bar he wouldn't have dared be late for court, would have been admonished by the Judge and would have garnered a reputation of being unreliable and unprofessional - result - significant loss of income.

GPs do themselves a disservice by talking about working part time. A ‘part time’ working 4 days a week is working around 48 hours on average. That’s 10 hours more than your average full time worker elsewhere.

This. Thank you.

It’s also worth pointing out that medicine degrees are extraordinarily costly and in the UK the fees are effectively heavily subsidised relative to other degrees. This is particularly relevant when medics end up working in countries like the US and Australia where they are higher paid.

I have to say that a 6 figure salary for a GP or surgeon isn’t at all unreasonable ( and many GPS don’t even get that).
plumbers and electricians get that, and although all their jobs are important and involve years of trading, I think that most people would agree with paying a doctor more than a plumber, because of the ‘life saving’ involved.

@outingoutingif someone really wants to be a doctor - they are not going to understand the pitfalls until they become one. I never thought about money until I had kids and needed money if I wanted to give them a certain life. For some, it is about following a passion. I have tried to dissuade many prospective medical students but they would not listen. And nor should they. It a vocation.