To think that not all doctors are badly paid - junior ones, yes, but not all?

[MyAmusedOpalCrab]

It’s often said that doctors in the NHS are underpaid but is that really true across the board? Junior doctors, yes, absolutely. But consultants, GPs and some specialists earn six figures. AIBU to think that while the pay structure may be flawed, it’s not accurate to say all doctors are struggling financially?

I’ve recently had a cataract operation which had some complications due to another condition. I had absolutely amazing treatment on the NHS. My surgeon has saved my sight in the last year and I can’t put a price on that.

I think it’s important that doctors are properly paid for the incredible job that they do to reflect the level of immense responsibility that they have. A lawyer or accountant won’t blind you or potentially kill you if they make a mistake.

Every doctor I know is absolutely loaded 👍 Nepal for 3 weeks? No problem. Aus/NZ for a month? Why not? Seville for a long weekend? Yep 😀 Second sports car for the wife? Not a problem

Why do you think only doctors out of the professions pay for their exams? Solicitors pay for their exams £5k+), architects pay for their exams, accountants pay for their exams, chartered surveyors pay for their exams… most professions also have to pay for professional membership fees (law society, RIBA, RICS etc) and professional indemnity insurance (many thousands for solicitors for eg). Solicitors do 4 or 5 years of university/law school, 2 years further training before qualification, will need about another 7-8 years post qualification experience before partnership (or more)… barristers rarely take silk before 15 years post qualification experience. doctors aren’t some special breed. They are just trained professionals like many others. I agree if they fuck up they can kill people but frankly so can architects and engineers.

Where do we 'often hear 'doctors are underpaid' though?

Not in my world and other posters are asking where you are hearing this as it seems few hear this on the daily.

Most of your presented facts can be applied to a lot of jobs/professions regarding wages. I'm confused.

The problem is resentment. On MN if someone isn’t being paid minimum wage then they’re clearly just greedy, regardless of what they do or how they got there.

I’ve just spent four months in hospital and been through major surgery. And I earn a shit salary. And frankly I don’t care how much the drs are paid, my surgeon is internationally renowned, I don’t care if he goes home to play on his tennis court before taking a dip in his swimming pool, good luck to him.

cost of living doesn’t change just because you earn more, it’s just that you buy different. If you earn more then your cost of living still goes up, so why shouldn’t you be entitled to a raise?

it’s not a race to the bottom.

I think they lost a lot of sympathy with some of the claims they were making eg that they get paid less than people working in Pret coffee shops.
That was nonsense as they weren't comparing like with like. They were comparing the 'hourly rate' for a just qualified doctor with zero experience (FY1) & not including additional payments eg shift premiums that make up their salary. Then implying that all junior doctors receive that hourly rate.

They then compared that to the hourly rate for Pret staff in a supervisor role in a hot spot location (usually air side location where staff need additional security checks, need a UK passport & need to drive due to unsociable hours) so only a tiny number actually receive that hourly rate.

There was an assumption that they are better & more valuable than anyone else & an assumption that the public are thick.

All the newly graduated medics & uni students I've met have been deeply unpleasant & arrogant young people who seem to think they are owed something by society.

The Government does not run the NHS. It is run by NHS England. People with significant NHS and clinical experience on the whole, who do not do a very good job and thankfully it's being sljmmed down.

https://www.england.nhs.uk/about/nhs-england-board/our-leadership-team/

Let's see: Telford, Shropshire, East Kent, Nottingham, etc. None of those Trusts were run by politicians, none of their Dirdctors of Children's and Women's Services would have had insignificant NHS/Clinical experience.

Those who leave the NHS for The Antipodes, Canada, etc, are not going to work in a like for like system. I'm all for bringing back state funded bursaries/grants for medics and nurses but it would come with the caveat that once qualified ten years had to be served for the NHS, otherwise the money had to be paid back - illness excepted.

No other country has an NHS System - they largely have more sense and their healthcare isn't suffused with political ideology to the same extent.

PS: the country is bankrupt. There is no money.

It’s disingenuous to say that the government doesn’t run the NHS. NHSE is directed by the DHSC. The NHS gets all its money from the government.

The abolition of NHSE (not a bad thing IMO) will put NHSE’s current functions into DHSC, giving the government more direct control.

Eh? My dh has been a Consultant for 25 years now, we dont live anything like that lifestyle 😂 in fact we could only dream of it! Wheres he gone wrong 🤔

We have one car between us, so he cycles to the hospital every day, if his clinic is in the hospital in the next town then he catches the bus. We are only on holiday now because friends whose household income is very significantly higher than ours (they are in banking and HR), invited us to their holiday home.

😂
Perhaps I just know some very rich doctors. But all the examples I gave are real ones 👍😀

@SnakesAndArrows - where do you think the government gets its money from?

Taxation obviously. I was responding to your inaccurate claim that the government doesn’t run the NHS.

Last paragraph nails it.

Previous generation of consultants were considerably (hugely) better paid. I think some of the confusion/stereotyping comes from people not realising the pay structure has changed.

Still well paid, but an NHS consultant cannot afford big house, private schools and luxury holidays on their salary now - in the past, this was totally doable and that’s what people seem to mentally associate with a consultant salary.

I don't think Doctors, whatever level they are at in their careers, are paid enough for what they do. I don't agree that those in entertainment industries, like footballers or 'influencers', should earn what they do - but that's life.

Medicine is a choice, it's not like the path is unknown, and yet people still apply. If someone wants a CEO salary of a multinational corp - go do that then. Those jobs, whilst not life endangering, aren't a walk in the park either. Life isn't fair, we don't get what we want, but ultimately those entering Medicine are doing it by choice.

I read your message before the user name and guessed it would be you writing! I think I have been on this board for too long!

Anyway, I’m a hospital consultant of 30 years. I am full-time NHS and have never done any private work and do not want to. I think my salary is fair and I never complain about it. It is different for resident doctors.

I agree by the way that there are many rude NHS staff and it depresses me like hell. Being polite and kind to patients, however difficult a day you have had, is the absolute minimum required for our work.

Was that the money she was complaining about, the cost of milk? Or the hassle of having to go out?

They also strike on their base salary rates. Junior doctors need to work at least 60 hours a week to reach a certain level of expertise. And overtime rates pay very very well.

Excellent. We are on the same page then 😀

At no point did I want to encourage my kids to follow me into medicine. Thankfully they are at university doing entirely different subjects.

I don't think consultants are terribly underpaid, but their pay is less than it should be and does encourage many to do more lucrative private work to supplement it. Juniors are underpaid, especially given how long someone can be at that status in the UK, and given that their wages have gone down in real terms since 2010.

While GPs are not directly employed by the NHS, the GP contract effectively sets their compensation. I don't think GPs are paid enough given what they are expected to do, but I also suspect that a lot of GPs would prefer a workload reduction (ie same money but for less work) to just getting higher pay. It's why there's so many "part time" GPs who actually work 40 hours a week.

I am definitely on the same page as you when it comes to politeness. I can’t stand it when NHS staff do not introduce themselves, do not ask what name patients want to be called, do not explain things properly and do not check that the patient feels that they have been heard. In my view, no consultation is complete unless you asked the patient what they hoped for from the appointment.

I don’t tend to complain about my job although the increasing cuts in the staff numbers is making it impossible to deliver the same service that we did 20 years ago. We definitely deliver worse care than we did decades ago because we don’t have enough nurses and support workers to do the job any more. It’s sad.

My main stress is really being responsible for people’s lives. Trying not to worry that your actions may lead to harm or death.The few occasions I have had to go to Coroner’s Court have been the worst experiences of my life. But this is not directly to do with pay or funding, it is just the nature of the job. I’m not sure if more money could compensate me for that stress really.

I work with some amazing resident doctors. They have to jump through so many hoops these days. And I’m really not sure that all these hoops are necessary to be a good doctor. I don’t like the way it is going and feel that with the different working hours, all the leadership, academic and management objectives, these may actually be getting in the way of our residents having the intense clinical experience I did. I do think we can learn the most from patients, but that has got lost in the NHS to some degree. Or maybe I am just a bit too old to understand it all!

The money! We normally get our milk delivered and the hospital pays for it but we had run out. So yeah it’s annoying but the price of a pint of milk isn’t going to kill her.

(we take it in turns if it runs out and quite often the nursing staff will being in biscuits/extra tea bags etc. Funnily the doctors never do)

They’ve not been called junior doctors for almost a year. The term now is resident doctors.

Are people on this thread aware of the GP unemployment that is happening at the moment?
in addition to the PP who asked about part time GPs. There are various reasons - for some it may be a choice but for others, working any more will lead to the risk of burnout due to the nature of the job. A lot of GPs have portfolio careers - whilst they may work part time at your surgery, they may have other roles within or outside the NHS.

Yes, I imagine that dr had enough money to buy some milk.