Family basically falling apart

[UmberDeer]

Any advice would be appreciated here as I feel like my family is basically falling apart. I have two daughters, a 17yo and a 14yo. Their relationship is pretty much non-existent, for example at the dinner table they completely ignore each other. Every time I go out with my daughters, the 14yo would pick on the 17yo, scrutinizing everything she does and calls her sister weird and friendless and wouldn't stop side-eyeing her.

They go to the same school and the 17yo stays in the locker room with her best friend instead of sitting at tables with friends because her best friend wouldn't budge but this is another problem and the 17yo wants to change that. I know the 17yo could sit with people if she wanted to, so I am not worried about it.

When that happens, I would tell the 14yo to stop picking on her sister and look at her disapprovingly. I would defend the 17yo but the 14yo just wouldn't stop. The 14yo is also routinely rude to me and I have tried everything from screen time to turning off the wifi to taking away her pocket money but the 14yo would not change.

The 17yo has told me that once she has the means to she would cut off all contact with the 14yo. I understand where she is coming from and I just nodded but I did my best with the 14yo.

My relationship with the 17yo has gotten better recently but she can be cold towards me sometimes but is still polite. Their dad lives in another city but he is involved in our lives.

Sorry if I rambled a bit I am at a lost

What happens next is she would go and turn the wifi back on, and she either ignore me or swears at me about the pocket money

Why on earth are you not changing the wifi password, so turning it back on will not result in wifi for her (only for yourself and 17yo who have the new password)?

If she swears at you about the (lack of) pocket money, then that’s another week gone. And another.

Then you cannot go out for lunch together as a family. Your 14 yo is out of control. A veto on family lunches out is simply a consequence of that and should be the least of your concerns.

Sounds like not having to spend time with her sister would be a blessed relief for the 17 yo anyway.

They probably all need to lie on the school psychologist's couch if she treats them like she treats her sister.

Do you realise you're arguing with everyone?

Kids want and need to feel loved and having one on one time is the most important thing you can do for your relationship. At the moment it sounds like you only value time as a unit rather than them as individuals which may be why she is acting out.

Focus on that and you may start seeing positive changes in your 14 year old.

Many siblings adore each other, other's dislike each other.

OP's household is not normal behaviour. I have 3 Dsis's we would squabble, argue, drag our property back but never be so hurtful and cruel as DD2.
As adults we're all good friends.

DD2, 14 sounds like she has a serious mental health problem or she is just a nasty person, fight fire with fire.

My 14yr old is a complete law to himself at the moment. One minute he's an angel and the next he's vile. I have been very worried about him and I am working very hard to help him. School are involved, he does a lot of activities outside or school which helps and I spend a lot of money taking him out to lunch to talk about healthy behaviours and his frustrations. He does have a good relationship with his sister but even she has enough of him sometimes.

Was there relationship always like this or is it more recent? Does your youngest one feel jealous or think you favour your older one. We are having difficult conversations like this atm, it takes my son a lot of reminding of all the nice things he has in his life like his sister has in hers.

Helpful🙄

OP, I have no advice, just wanted to say I’m in the same boat - also a lone parent and youngest DD treats her older sibling like shit. Sending you a hug

What format do you take at telling your 14yr old to be more kind? It sound like there is a lot of conflict already in the house so you saying this just winds he up further which isn't going ot help.

She sounds amazingly unhappy and she is therefore making things really unhappy for you all. You need to get to the root cause of this, have you taken her out for the day and asked her about her life? I find asking to my 14yr about whats going on in a neutral place like a cafe or restaurant a good place to talk, mainly while he is eating a burger as I think he feels more special this way.

Actually you'll find a lot of people have been through the teens with multiple DC without major issues. TBH the OP sounds like she's scared of upsetting the younger DD and will end up driving away the elder if she doesn't get a grip.

Steps to take now:
1)Read the book “how to talk so teenagers will listen and listen so they will talk”.
2) stop worrying about long term things like holidays. You need to work out how to improve the 14yo’s behaviour now, so just focus on that. She is unhappy - happy people don’t behave this way - and this is what you have to unravel with her.
3) Stop saying things like “you better be” which just push her further away. Be curious about why she is behaving this way. If her friends change every year that suggest she’s actually struggling with friendships and is maybe projecting her insecurities onto her sister.
4) Tell her in a quiet moment 1-1 that you love her and will always be there for her but the bad behaviour and disrespect towards you and her sister has to stop. Approach this in a loving way, as someone who wants to solve a problem together with her. If you can’t get through to her or she won’t talk to you, take away all her tech, lock it up, and make the condition of getting it back that she agrees to have a genuine honest conversation with you about why she behaves the way she does, and agrees a plan with you for what will happen differently from now on. If after this conversation she goes back on the agreement, take all the tech away again. It sounds like she’s hurting in some way and trying to push you both away to defend against feeling her own unpleasant feelings. Love bomb her but don’t budge on the technology until she is ready to be honest with you.

14year old needs actual consequences. not just loss of pocket money and wifi off.

you need to find something that actually causes her to rethink, what is the most important thing to her?
Whatever it is, when she is this badly behaved - it goes. no phone, change the wifi password, take her PC away, no going out, no phonecalls, Home and school only.

Is sending her to her fathers permantly posssible? or any particular relative shes not too fond of?

You current discaplinary methods don't seem to be working.

You need to get a lock for your bedroom door and 17yo's bedroom door so she can't steal and leave her at home if you're out for the day until she can behave herself. As for holidays, there are summer boarding schools that exist. Maybe that's a bit of a nuclear option but you can definitely have it there as a threat.

So being utterly ineffective then. This didn't 'just start'. It's been creeping up and you've been ignoring it or brushing it off.

Going out for lunch as a family is not a priority right now, especially when those lunches are so damaging and toxic.

Was there a time when the two dds got along and loved each other?
Has your 14yr old always been like this, or is it a change?
You need to talk to your 14yr old, really talk to her at length over time and find out what's going on with her.

My two oldest went through a phase of seeing to hate each other. It turned out they both thought the other one didn't like them and they were reacting to each other. It took a while to untangle, a lot of saying to each one that they needed to instigate change and see things from a different perspective.

I bloody hate the expression be kind, its patronising and something you say to 5 year olds.

OP your daughter is 14, you, and only you, need to get a grip of this situation today!

Dad needs to come back asap and stop shirking his parenting responsibilities. She needs him.

I agree with @Cathy6754 "The 14 year old sounds to be in some sort of pain".

Yes her behaviour is awful, but I strongly suspect she's damaged and GOOD therapy is vital.

If your DD14 was much more amenable up until a few years ago, I would guess it is teen hormones adding serious fuel to some sort of deeper issue. Perhaps being mean is the only way she feels is guaranteed to get your undivided attention right now. Being the youngest in the family often comes with a whole raft of issues, feeling like the baby with no control over your circumstances. Given that you and DD17 get on much better perhaps she is envious of that relationship.

But is something else adding to this? Did her father move out around this time, or did you move house or did she change schools or did her best friend move away? This looks like deep unhappiness, anger and resentment and need for attention, plus the unkind behaviour is being reported as happening outside the family too. It isn't solely a problem within your family.

Clear, consistent boundaries and clear, proportionate, enforceable punishments for breaking those are vital. But it is also important to have equally clear and achievable goals and rewards too or life as a teen can feel like a miserable grind of being compliant just to avoid being punished.

You need to find out what is going on with DD14, urgently. Other posters have made good suggestions about having conversations with DD14 and making sure she knows you love her but won't accept mean behaviour from her. If she won't open up to you, at least not straightaway, maybe a school counsellor or therapist can be a starting point for her to have more constructive conversations about how she feels and why she behaves as she does.

You also need to consider how your own behaviour has been contributing - you sound passive and unwilling until now to set and enforce very firm boundaries. Perhaps you unconsciously favour DD17 because she is easier to deal with and DD14 picks up on this. The best thing you can do for both your daughters is to hold firm on basic ground rules that apply to them both and do whatever it takes to help DD14 out of the dark place she is currently in.

Totally agree.
I went to a meeting in our local church hall with my friend last week and it went on to the evening. When we came out her 14 year old son was waiting by the wall with his bike. We issued he had forgotten his key or had a problem but when we asked why he was there he said 'I've come to walk mum home'. Lovely lad. Shame OP's child isn't the same.

Absolutely this^^. Great post!

Your family hasn’t fallen apart op and I don’t think it’s helpful to frame it that way.

What I see when I read your op is that you are a conscientious parent who is despairing and weary of her youngest teen’s behaviour and that you are struggling to implement boundaries with her. And that you are worried about your eldest and the relationship between the two sisters. And that this situation is dragging you down emotionally,

I hope this doesn’t sound patronising op bc it’s not meant like that at all, but I think you need to believe in yourself a bit more. Be a bit more confident when establishing boundaries. This isn’t a catastrophe this is normal life with stroppy teen girls who are only half-baked. I went through hell with one of mine and she didn’t even go off the rails in a conventional sense; she was bright and feisty and was mean to us all at home because, like a toddler, her competence and ability to look after herself in the outside world did not match, at that time, her ambitions for independence and freedom. And boy did she make us all suffer for it! She was also, as it turned out, depressed, and this manifested itself as anger.

Behaviour is communication op and you need to try and find out why your youngest is behaving this way. It could just be normal teen angst. Is she jealous of the relationship that you and your elder dd have? It might partly be personality but she might be massively insecure and crying out for boundaries from you. Your “frailty” as she sees it is giving her the subliminal message that problems can’t be handled! Or she is bored and depressed and picking on you both to get dopamine hits?

Whatever it is, and the way to find out is to spend time alone with her, don’t allow yourself to be dragged down with it as it is a phase which will get better. It might be a five year marathon, so you need to bolster yourself up for the long haul, knowing you will all come out of it ok on the other side.

Step one : SELF CARE

Your teens are watching you op and your youngest one is testing you. They are waiting to see how you handle all of life’s challenges.
You are their rock or solid foundation from which they spring off in to the world. They need to check that it’s solid before they leap!

They are also looking at what you do, not what you say, Be the best role model and example you can be! Give them a reason to mature; show them that adulthood can be fun and fulfilling, not just a whole weight of problems on your shoulders.

And in order to do this, you need support! Parenting teens can be so lonely and draining on your own. Try and find a licensed psychologist; an older woman, someone who has experience of adolescent development. Even if you can only afford to see her once a month. Sell clothes if you have to. You need someone to bounce ideas off, as all of this is a heavy weight without someone to consult with.

See your gp and talk about whether you are depressed yourself, or need some extra vitamins or supplements. Attend to your sleep, your diet and make time to exercise.

And lock up your valuables and start doing things outside of the house! Get a hobby! Do something creative! Something you enjoy! By allowing the fourteen year old to dictate what happens in your home; you are giving her enormous power to run things the way she likes! Go out if you want to go out and make sure she is in a class or activity when you do, Or with another responsible adult whom you pay to look after her. If she can’t be trusted to behave at home while you are out, then this is the consequence!

You can’t look after others properly op until you look after yourself properly! And teens can drain you and it’s easy to get sucked too far down the rabbit hole of worry with them instead of sitting a reasonable distance from the entrance and waiting to see where they pop up!

Step two: BE STRATEGIC

Take an emotional step back and choose your battles. Don’t micro-manage. Don’t get involved in squabbles. Step away when your youngest is mean to you. She doesn’t get to communicate that way with you full stop. Change the WiFi password if you have to. Leave the house if you have to. And step in emphatically when she is mean to her sister. Emphasise the sort of home you are trying to create but don’t try and manage their relationship either.

Make sure your youngest has lots of distractions. She has lots of energy at the moment to bait people and that needs channelling in to something more productive. Get her involved in something which is challenging for her and out of her comfort zone (that usually inculcates a bit of humility) and mastering something challenging can boost self confidence. What about the Duke of Edinburgh award? Volunteering at a pet shelter? Helping out at a riding stable? Learning to be a lifeguard?

Step three: improving individual relationships

Get to know both of your girls by spending one on one time with them for now. But insist on some family meals during the week and cook them all together. Once a week if it is hard at the beginning. Get to know each of them and their individual worries. Your eldest may be spending time hiding at school bc her younger sister is humiliating her in front of her friends? Find out about that. She is probably a little cold towards you because she feels that the younger sister’s issues are being allowed to dominate the household and she can’t trust you yet to handle it, So communicate with her. Take her out to dinner. Take her on a drive. Get a baby-sitter for the younger one if you have to. And a safe to put your valuables in while you are out! Or make sure the youngest attends an evening dance class or martial arts class once a week and take the eldest out them.

And then do the same with the younger one. Talk to her. Don’t let every interaction with her spiral down in to negativity. Have fun times too with both of them.Run errands together and build in a bit of a fun stop on each outing. Some junk food or a trip to a clothes shop.

It’s helpful to switch your parenting strategy now from “top down” to “running alongside”. It’s tempting to get stuck as parents and not adapt to your teens increasing abilities. Can you give your younger teen more responsibilities and power within the home for example? Could she plan some meals? Shop for them at the supermarket? Give her more choices if she feels stifled? Try to get your home to run more as a collective where “young adults” are living together and negotiating abd sharing a space rather than you managing every detail. At the same time, you need to ensure that agreed rules are followed through.

This all takes a lot of energy on your part when presumably you are working too but you CAN do this op! You have to believe in yourself. You are not failing. You are parenting on your own and that’s hard. Just know that it will all come right in the end. Invest in yourself and invest in the relationships with your girls and it will come right I promise. This too shall pass!

My eldest was incredibly difficult for five years and she raged and raged and it drained me completely, and the more I was drained, the angrier she got, it was a vicious circle. Now she is in her early twenties she is back to her delightful, humorous, curious, considerate, dynamic self! I can hardly believe it but it’s true!

Could you catch a break this summer btw and send the youngest to spend a week to ten days with her dad? If he is trustworthy? That could be your time to take a wee holiday before implementing a new strategy when she returns. Is she mature enough to start travelling unaccompanied with a parent meeting her at either end?

Good luck 💐

OP your meant to be parenting a 14 year old, not a 4 year old.

She is at an age that she understand kindness and shes choosing not to display it and for whatever reason your choosing to ignore it or make half hearted attempts.

Other people/parents are talking about your 14 year old girl!! Shes running amok and your allowing it.

If you do a bit of reading about adolescent brain development you will see that all the studies have shown that it’s actually very compliant, obedient teens , who do not rebel at all, who are often the ones who find themselves in difficulty in later life, and not the ones who go through a perfectly natural rebellious stage where they individuate from their parents. And in order to do that, they sometimes need to reject or at least question their parents rules and values. This doesn’t make them obnoxious. It makes them normal.

So although I am sure that your friend’s son is a delightful boy; she may do well to look a little more deeply behind the reasons why collecting his mum from church with his bike is a priority for a fourteen year old? It could be a lovely protective gesture as you assume. Or it could be that he is a bit lost and immature for his age and over compliant because he has no self confidence? Or he is desperate to please or so lacking in confidence that he needs praise and validation from strangers at church? Or is it could be he has no friends of his own? It’s wise not to jump to conclusions.

I don’t think this is always the case tbh. My eldest dd was well behaved, compliant, curious, intelligent, polite and funny as a pre-pubescent child. The minute she turned fourteen her behaviour changed. It was like hormones had stolen my child overnight and changed her personality,

I am not saying that parents sit back and absolve responsibility for their teenagers’ behaviour. Not at all. You have to have firm and consistent boundaries at every stage of development from toddler through to late teen and early adult. But your parenting has to adapt.

And you also need to establish a good relationship in the pre-teen years as that is ultimately what will keep them safe and making good decisions during the rebellious period. I do think brain development abd hormones play their part as well as parenting. It’s not simply one of the other. It’s both!

Hahaha I don’t think so. He’d been to football practice, has plenty of mates, sometimes forgets to do his homework and his room gets messy like most teenagers. But he isn’t an obnoxious brat like OPs second child terrorizing his siblings, ruining family days out and answering back like he owns the world.

OP I think you have all you need to go on from this post