Family basically falling apart

[UmberDeer]

Any advice would be appreciated here as I feel like my family is basically falling apart. I have two daughters, a 17yo and a 14yo. Their relationship is pretty much non-existent, for example at the dinner table they completely ignore each other. Every time I go out with my daughters, the 14yo would pick on the 17yo, scrutinizing everything she does and calls her sister weird and friendless and wouldn't stop side-eyeing her.

They go to the same school and the 17yo stays in the locker room with her best friend instead of sitting at tables with friends because her best friend wouldn't budge but this is another problem and the 17yo wants to change that. I know the 17yo could sit with people if she wanted to, so I am not worried about it.

When that happens, I would tell the 14yo to stop picking on her sister and look at her disapprovingly. I would defend the 17yo but the 14yo just wouldn't stop. The 14yo is also routinely rude to me and I have tried everything from screen time to turning off the wifi to taking away her pocket money but the 14yo would not change.

The 17yo has told me that once she has the means to she would cut off all contact with the 14yo. I understand where she is coming from and I just nodded but I did my best with the 14yo.

My relationship with the 17yo has gotten better recently but she can be cold towards me sometimes but is still polite. Their dad lives in another city but he is involved in our lives.

Sorry if I rambled a bit I am at a lost

You sound incredibly passive! Teenagers are hard work, and you don’t seem to be putting any work in at all - she clearly has no respect for you and no enforceable boundaries. You are her parent not her friend, take control!

her friends change year to year

that is not normal Op and not a sign of popularity

I think maybe your relationships are too emeshed? Your younger daughter is showing very challenging behaviour which must be difficult to live with but it’s best to try and separate her behaviour from the feeling of the whole family, it’s normal for siblings to not get along but it doesn’t mean your family is falling apart.
can you spend time with them separately?
seems like maybe you’re giving your youngest too much power to dictate the tone in the house. I’d also speak with your oldest about how to separate someone else’s words from how you can choose to feel, as in to recognise that another persons behaviour is their own responsibility and issue and huh done have to take it all in.
your youngest sounds super angry and frustrated if she’s lashing out, maybe try and work through this with her?
this isn’t a post to try and minimise how difficult it is at home for you right now rather some sharing of things I didn’t know about myself and how I interacted with family until I worked through some stuff in therapy x

Do you have any idea why the 14 year old is so angry… was it something that changed suddenly or related to the split?

Not that it excuses her behaviour at all, but could there be something going on with her that is causing the anger/lashing out at those closest?

obviously you need to support the 17yo and have boundaries about how they behave around each other but it may not be something the 14 year old can turn around with discipline alone if there’s an underlying issue

The mumsnet answer to every teenage problem is to turn the WiFi off but that is not going to solve the negative relationships in your family. I agree with others saying you need to spend time with your daughters separately. You also need to find out why your youngest is so unhappy and mean. It will be something. What is her school/social/academic life like? When adults are unhappy at work they often take it out on their families. Teenagers are the same but they often add an extra layer of secrecy.

You sound pretty exhausted OP, think it’s really important you try and take a step back so you can put some perspective on this whole thing, you’re not as helpless as you might feel at the moment and slipping into the mode of thinking it’s all beyond your control isn’t going to do anyone any favours and is a bit of a cop out tbh, sorry that’s harsh but you’ll pay for it more and more if you don’t get your confidence up and take charge here

And it’s so bloody odd because most have unlimited data anyway

Your replies are infuriating OP. You’ve created this situation. Do something about it or don’t, but you’re wasting everyone’s time.

This sounds a tough situation and it’s particularly hard to be parenting solo. From what I’ve seen of some of my DD’s friends, a fair few girls (11 yrs) behave quite rudely to their parents in quite an extreme way and I don’t know if it’s a thing they get from social media or something. But I also wonder if there is something going on with your 14 yr old that she’s finding hard and it’s coming out with all this negative behaviour. Are there any other family members around to help maybe? Who else is she close to? What do the school say about her behaviour? Good luck

The behaviour of your 14 year old is going to take some time to change. Plenty of suggestions on here - I would also suggest reading ‘Get out of my life - but first take me and Alex into town’.

You can also do some things to deal with some of the behaviour.
Get a lock fitted on the door of your 17 year olds bedroom so your younger daughter can’t steal from her. Depending on where the WiFi hun is, you could do the same there or get a contract that allows you a controlled connection (sometimes you can do this via a mobile phone).

I strongly recommend that you confide in your trusted friends and regularly invite them round. Teenagers usually behave better in the company of guests, especially if they appear oblivious to the situation and show an interest in them. The upshot can be that your 14 year old gets practice being civil and the more this happens the less alien it becomes.

Also try and step back from your situation and try to analyse dispassionately the behaviour with an ‘I am wondering…’ hat on. The more you can make sense of the route of the behaviour, the more you can address it. Your 14 year old could, for example, be profoundly jealous of your relationship with your elder daughter (she may not even realise this herself).

Good luck- the teenage years are tough!

other girls parents say she is mean, is she thriving? I’d suggest throwing into the mix that you’ve done all you can and you think you might look at changing her school. See what she thinks of that.

This could not be more true.

Complaining and moaning about a situation entirely within her control and then excuses excuses excuses.

How many bloody holidays does OP think a 14yo needs? Why is she getting wifi access or pocket money reinstated if she’s not changed? Why isn’t OP absolutely terrified that other parents think her DD is mean and can’t keep a friend for long? Why is this child still in the possession of her phone and going on camps?

One of my sisters is 4 years younger than me, without specific details she was very mean and just not a nice person at all. Her behaviour was crap from even younger than 14, she also struggles to hold on to friends. I don’t live near my family as moved away from work. She is incredibly manipulative, she also used to steal as a child.,

Fast forward 3 decades and our Mother died. It was quite an easy decision, the last time I spoke to her was at our Mothers funeral. Her behaviours remained awful, negative, mischief making, she did something to our older sister that was shocking. She has a genuine cruel streak. The entire family cut her off. One other sister had cut her off years before, to be honest I wish I had.

I used to think that incidents had to have happened to have caused children and adults to behave badly and they do but unless somethung happened to her that I don’t know about then to me she was just born bad.

Sorry not what you want to read but our Mother was a bit weak willed with her as she was such a strong character and so dominant even as a small child. Think Mother was a bit intimidated by her. I would take her privately to see a child psychologist. My sister must have some sort of undiagnosed MH issue. She positively enjoys hurting people.

Your 14 year old is being a PITA. Unarguably.

However, are you entirely sure your 17 year old is completely innocent? Is she winding up her sister? As an older sister I certainly knew certain buttons that could be pressed very effectively.

DD17 is not the problem.

Why are the consequences for DD14 actions so limited? No events, no rewards, no fun, no screens - only school and home until she does better.

Make her see that shit behaviour means you get excluded from society. At the moment, she chooses not to be part of the family. Give her the consequences. Every eye roll needs to be explained.

Stamp it out before she's an adult - and as it sounds like you're in the USA, before she starts driving. No one needs an antisocial risk taker on the road.

Perhaps one of those troubled teen boot camps you have there might help...

That is a nightmare. Start being mean to DD14, a warning isn't enough, I would go to war with her.

But you can for a day while you are out with the other obe

All these women who write on here 'should I give my child a sibling (even though I am happy with one child) because they "might be lonely"' need to read this.
Some siblings just hate each other.
How sad OP. Your poor older child.

That’s why my solution was change the password AND take away the data plan.

I know there’s a wider issue here but the mum needs an immediate consequence. Swear at me? Fine no wifi or data for 2 days. Swear at your sister? Fine, 2 more days.

The mum threatening this and then the 14yo just switches it back on is laughable really.

Also I don’t think it’s as bleak as this poster makes out, jeez!!! Have you never met a moody teen?!

14 year olds are mostly terrible. Me and my mum had a really difficult time when I was around 14 - 19. I was so moody!! If I had a sister I’m sure I would have taken it out on her too 🤣

BUT op needs to nip this in the bud. No matter how bad I was feeling, I never would have swore at my mum or disrespected her. I was too scared of the consequences. OP’s ones are not working and she is too passive.

Permissive parenting.

Can sometimes be when the parent (mum) has been raised in an overly strict or even abusive home. Could also be due to a passive personality. OP has basically handed over authority and power to her daughters. The 17 year old isn't abusing this but the 14 year old is.

I don't believe being a bully as the 14 yo seems to be is always due to ND, sometimes people like that are simply extremely intolerant of others and if they perceive them as beneath them they bully them. Not all behaviour is communication, some behaviour is simply abuse of power.

It's a good idea to talk things through, feelings, behaviours, options and consequences. But if the 14 yo can't stop herself, someone else has to stop her. Ideally her parent but may be someone stronger and more nasty or the police. Time will tell. The better option would be if OP found her voice and came down like a ton of bricks.

I do not believe in meek parenting. Show understanding, show options, talk it through but if her attitude doesn't change, find you anger and show your dd who is the boss. While you pay for her upkeep and are responsible for your home, bills, health and well-being of your family you are the boss OP, not a teenager with a chip on their shoulder.

And telling a 14 tear old be kind is ridiculous. You speak like the with a toddler or pr-schooler. It's completely ineffective with. 14 year old.

agree. If this is real then those two children are effectively being parented by a child.

Hi. Iv got a middle child who has become a 14 year old d#ck to be quite honest.

We have come down hard on any unkind words to siblings and tone. Omg the tone. That now gets consequences too.
Grounding - made to stay in room, every device locked in a cupboard. WiFi password changed.

We are seeing glimmers of him but omg he is a bloody pain in the ass

Well, no, you can’t. Because one of your children is absolutely horrible.

Turn off the WiFi completely and remove the phone completely. Stop catering to her behaviour and if she escalates - escalate back. Lock stuff in the attic if you have to and make her earn it back.

People don’t change this kind of behaviour until they hit a ‘come to Jesus’ moment. You have to create one.

And your 17 year old needs to be the one getting attention and treats.

14 year olds are not horrible. It’s not a rule that they are all like that.

It’s this kind of passiveness and abdication of responsibility that lets parents become doormats. 14 year olds are only horrible if you let them cross boundaries when they are younger.