To be very anxious about the assisted dying bill?

[bipbopdo]

I’m surprised by how anxious I am about it. I don’t agree with it at all and I’m not sure there will ever be enough safeguards to justify making it legal. As it currently stands, it’s theoretically possible for someone with anorexia to qualify.

It took less than ten years for Canada to expand eligibility well beyond the original criteria. Assisted dying now accounts for one in twenty deaths there. I’m scared that could happen here.

YANBU. It’ll be a total disaster- people coerced and it not being able to be proven, people doing it to save their children money in care home fees, people doing it after feeling dazzled by a doctor in a white coat. Anorexics, the learning disabled, abused women all at risk.

What a disgrace. I don’t recognise this country anymore.

No, we do not have that choice.
We have a choice of attempting it by any number of terrible means that aren’t guaranteed to work and that could be a hell of a lot more uncomfortable and painful than drugs they would use when the bill comes in to effect. Also, potential family members who want to help wouldn’t be guilted in to making an awful decision whether they should help or not and won’t have to think about the criminal aspects of it.

And what if it doesn’t work but the patient is left severely disabled and in even more pain than they were? Or a loved one has to go through the trauma of finding them?

I’m sorry you feel that way. Personally I think it’s a victory for compassion and humanity and gives me a great deal of comfort should I ever find myself in those circumstances. I think the safeguards are more than sufficient.

@CorneliaCupp

i don’t care what anyone says, my view is that people whose illness means they will only get worse not better, who are in pain and misery, who have lost all dignity etc should not be forced to keep suffering if they don’t want to. How could you deny someone in that situation that basic right? It’s their life and their body after all.

What difference does that make? Just because there is no legal obligation to inform next of kin of the patients decision (which I agree with, actually) doesn’t mean that some patients won’t choose to tell family and then get talked out of it.

Why is everyone so desperate to remove people’s autonomy?

Yeah you’re wrong @JumpingPumpkin

I suspect though that most people who truly loved their relatives and friends selflessly would have rather they didnt die in agony. We have to remember these people are already dying, they arent going to get better or suddenly be in less pain and theres only so much medicine can do, it cant eradicate all types of pain and often in the process the patient is left unconscious and their body slowly shuts down.

I wish anyone opposing this bill would have to spend a year working with these patients and their families and I doubt there would be anywhere near the same level of opposition to this bill.

Clearly we are not going to come to an agreement on this.
I think this bill should not be law, you disagree. Let's leave it there.

Sorry, I haven't read the bill; I do support assisted dying but my concern would be that it shouldn't be suggested by doctors / health professionals etc; the request should come voluntarily from the patient. That would be my only concern (plus all the other checks PP have mentioned).

The comments you quoted was in response to a poster who said that family would be able to talk them out of it. That's the difference it makes.

My ASD DC would be found to have capacity to make this decision, as would my good friend with LD. Without next of kin being informed, both would die when they didn't understand what they were agreeing too.

That’s contradictory. If they’re incapable of understanding they don’t have capacity.

The Association of Palliative Medicine don't support this bill.

They do in the way that this bill discusses capacity. Again, this was brought up in the committee stage, an amendment suggest, and rejected.

@CorneliaCupp

you haven't actually answered my question

i don’t care what anyone says, my view is that people whose illness means they will only get worse not better, who are in pain and misery, who have lost all dignity etc should not be forced to keep suffering if they don’t want to. How could you deny someone in that situation that basic right?

I don't think you should get flamed at all. I'm glad, for both of you, that she avoided a long, drawn out death

Absolutely. If you've sat by the bedside of a dying person, who's in horrible pain and indignity and begging you to help them die, and you have to sit there and say no, then I cannot imagine that you would not be in favour of assisted dying.

We watch our pets with terminal illnesses get to this stage and we know that the kindest thing is to put them to sleep - "better a week too soon than a day too late" we say. I am glad that we can now make that decision for ourselves.

i don’t care what anyone says, my view is that people whose illness means they will only get worse not better, who are in pain and misery, who have lost all dignity etc should not be forced to keep suffering if they don’t want to. How could you deny someone in that situation that basic righ
t?

• The vast majority of people don't want to see anyone suffer, I certainly don't.
• I would strongly support a huge increase in funding so that everyone who needs it has good access to quality palliative care. They don't at the moment.
• It is not possible to completely eradicate suffering, it is a part of life
• This bill will cause MORE suffering to the vulnerable in society
• You yourself said that you don't care what anyone says, so why carry on talking about this? Nothing I could possibly say would be sufficient.

The Association of Palliative Medicine is against this bill, a larger number of Hospices are against this bill.
People who have experienced exactly what you have described, are against this bill.
Even people who have come out in favour of the principle of alAD are against this bill.

I don’t think there’s a special definition of capacity defined for this bill. It couldn’t be more obvious that if someone doesn’t understand what they’re agreeing to then they don’t have capacity. And obviously The Association of Palliative Medicine doesn’t support the bill, it’s hardly objective.

It cannot come soon enough. We treat our pets with more care for end of life suffering than we do our family members.

Have you watched anyone die a horrific, slow, painful and drawn out death, OP? Because I have. I will defend the opportunity for them to be able to leave this world on their own terms with everything I have.

obviously The Association of Palliative Medicine doesn’t support the bill, it’s hardly objective.

What do you mean?

From what people have been saying is that they're scared of dying in unbearable pain. This is something that can be overcome with proper palliative care. No one needs to die in pain.

I volunteer at our local hospice where people are supported & they die with dignity, no pain, no suffering. We make sure that they and their loved ones are supported. Even after the loved one has died, I'm trained as a counsellor & part of a team who visit & maintain contact for as long as they need us.

My feeling is that this bill is going to mean that palliative care services are going to be further sapped of money & resources. It's just cheaper & easier to bump people off rather than look after them properly.

I'm a farmer's daughter, have been around animals all my life & been present when plenty of them have been 'put down' by vets. But you can't explain to an animal why they're in pain, can't tuck them into a bed, give them painkillers & care for them. The kindest thing is to 'put them out of their misery'.

But we're not animals & shouldn't be 'put out of our misery' like an elderly dog, pony or whatever. There isn't any need for humans to be in 'misery' when we have the wherewithal to alleviate it. Hospices to fantastic work. People die with dignity, their pain is alleviated. My local hospice needs a huge amount of money to keep it going every year & every year is in danger of closing.

So - go on then, bump people off rather than spend money on giving them the care that they need & the good death that they deserve.

The Royal College of Psychiatrists said:
The Mental Capacity Act does not provide a framework for assessing decisions about ending one’s own life: The Mental Capacity Act was created to safeguard and support people who do not have the capacity to make decisions about their care or treatment or matters like finances. Should the Bill become law in England and Wales, implications for both the Mental Capacity Act and Mental Health Act need to be considered. How would clinicians assess the new kind of capacity to decide to end one’s life that is framed in the Bill? How would clinicians protect and empower people with terminal illness to decide whether or not to end their own life, while at the same time detain those who are at risk of suicide so that they can be urgently treated?

It would be a bit weird if it did. I don't imagine British American Tobacco is that fond of the generational smoking ban or that the Independent Schools Association supports VAT on private schools either.

It’s really not meant as a threat. No doubt we’d all choose to die peacefully in our sleep but the reality is that we do need to be prepared for that not to happen.

I would prefer to know that I have the choice to die on my own terms rather than have a longer painful life which is really just prolonging the inevitable.

Reading the opinions on this thread is really interesting as it’s clear that there are some people absolutely opposed to AD. As previously mentioned it is similar to the debate around abortion. You either agree with it or you don’t. And that’s fine. This is about choice. I’m glad I had a choice about whether I wanted to go ahead with my pregnancy and I’ll be very happy if I could also have the choice to end my life if I was terminally ill.

I also don’t think for one minute that if someone chooses not to have an AD that the NHS would provide anything less than the dignified death that the person chose.