To be unsure what neurotypical is anymore

[rainingitspouring2]

So this is not to antagonise or offend and maybe it could be because I am on the spectrum myself (but this has never been implied) but I am starting to question what being neurotypical looks like these days.

On social media so many of my suggested reels, posts etc are about neurodivergence and also articles in the media etc. Celebs revealing they have adhd or dyslexia. I have to say a lot of it is relatable to some degree to most people (that I know anyway). I have 2 young DS and so many of their friends have potential ADHD/ASD according to their parents. Or I notice traits in kids but their parents have never said anything (but I would just think they were a neurotypical kid if I didn't have so much awareness now) Even some the parents at the school gate are saying they have some neurodivergence too. So I am finding myself noticing potential traits in almost every individual I have close contact with.
I know people say with neurodivergence 'birds of a feather flock together' perhaps that is the case but I'm just loosing sight of what a neurotypical and what isn't.
I'd almost find it helpful if we had traits of neurotypicals outlined explicitly to see whether we aligne with that or not. I am getting quite confused.
Does anyone else feel the same or AIBU? Again not meaning to offend just looking to discuss

No, I think it is you that don't understand. Struggling with life is not unique to ND people. Someone up thread used the example that being short makes some things harder. It does, but for anyone above about 4’6” it’s harder but not non-functional. The same is true of being shy: for some people being shy makes it harder to undertaken daily interactions but not non-functional. For a small minority it is so severe that they cannot function.

Finding things hard or really hard but still managing is just being a normal human. And this is why - the part of my post you ignored - I asked in circumstances of someone who is functioning is a diagnosis always helpful? You seem to have decided not only that you know how hard things are for you - which I’m sure you do, but also how hard they are for other people. You simply don’t. And being ND yourself tells you nothing about how hard another person finds things, how close to not functioning another person is. But because you have a diagnosis you may be focussing on things being harder (not even just hard) rather than focussing on the fact that you are managing.

You also seem to take umbrage at the idea that being “higher functioning” so you can manage your own day to day life shouldn’t be taken into account. But with conditions like ADHD and autism (and IBS or a sprained ankle for that matter) the treatment or intervention is literally predicated on how well you are coping. So if you are high functioning and coping, job done. Why do you need anything else? By all means if you struggle then find a better way, but if you are in a team of 10 and all 10 are coping but one is coping but finds it hard, do you really think all10 should switch to a system that 9 find more difficult to accommodate the tenth? If both can be accommodated, great. But if NT really are “typical” and so represent the majority, and you can cope with that, what is the reasoned, societal basis for making the majority’s lives harder? You are just making things more difficult generally, on the whole.

There seems to be an idea - and not saying this is what you say - that if all high functioning ND people were given as much support as severely impaired ND people they’d all be geniuses running the country. And I don’t buy either that that would be the case, or even if it would be the case that this then somehow entitles or makes it a good idea to give ND people that amount of State support.

This. Our child is ND and we get similar comments, where I describe a really tricky time we've had and someone pipes up with "oh my niece/nephew do that too! All kids do it" ... But they're not really understanding/hearing what I'm saying. I can spot NT families a mile off, because they are often able to do things ours can't, due to the ND.

I’m sorry, but what nonsense. There are NT people without friends. There are NT people who are “uneven”, even who - heaven forfend - have strengths (what an idea, I know). But this is your perception, and your perception through the lens of a diagnosis that may make you expect things to be harder for you.

You don’t know how hard other people, including people you assume to be NT (and you might be wrong about that. Even if you know, pandemic of under diagnosis, apparently) find things. You are assuming they don’t find it hard because to you they appear to do it successfully. But success tells you little to nothing about how hard it is for them. They may find it much harder than you. How do you compare? All you really know is that you and they are both functioning within the normal range.

I have absolutely no idea what youre saying here to be honest….The tone I get is that
”well you struggle, we all struggle, you have a bad day, we all have bad day…”. Its been explained in this thread and there is a wealth of information but “no you cant do something well we all cant do something…” is seemingly how you are looking at it.

From all of your rather aggressive responses (at times) on this thread, you are very against the condition being a labelled a condition and clearly have no want to be educated on that matter, which is fine thats how you are. No point arguing, ignorance is bliss.

Yes, you are right that I don’t want or need your “education“ (if by being educated you mean “agreeing with you”).

Pretty much everything else you are wrong about. Not accepting your perspective, or even thinking it is nonsense, is disagreement, not aggression.

I don’t care if you label yourself or not. I queried if it was helpful. If you were as willing to be educated as you suggest I should be you might at least want to ask yourself that question.

If I am wrong in my approach that we all struggle at some things but if we function it should still be pathologised, please can you educate me on this. Why it is only helpful to pathologise it when it relates to being ND, as opppsed to having “high functioning shortness” or “high functioning shyness”? why is your struggle that still allows you to function more in need of diagnosis than any other difficulty? Why does it help you to think of yourself as impaired despite the fact you can live life in the same way as the majority, but the same is not the case for a short/shy etc person?

And I don’t think the answer is in how great you perceive your difficulty to be in comparison to that of any other person, because as I’ve said you can’t compare it because you don’t know how difficult they find it (and given part of your argument appears to be “you don’t understand the magnitude of my struggle” you must at least acknowledge that you don’t understand that about others either). Given that must be the case, what test of impairment do you suggest other than “functionalness”?

Im genuinely interested and waiting eagerly but non-aggressively for you to educate me on these points.

They do this already in the DSM 5. Level 1 to Level 3, with Level 3 having significant support needs.

For me, my later-in-life ADHD diagnosis has been a revelation.

I'm naturally very intelligent (I've only tried one proper IQ test, which placed me towards the top end of the 99.9% percentile). As a primary aged child, I excelled, to the point where I had some involvement with the local university and had a contribution to a class draw signficant praise from a prominent scientist, before they realized it was coming from a 10 year old and not a physics undergrad.

As I went through secondary and tertiary education though, I went from being outstanding among my peers to "very good", due to a lack of focus. While my (still high) grades meant I didnt attract too much negative feedback, I did draw a lot of criticism in secondary for my perceived low-effort, and by the time I was at university, I was plagued by chronic insomnia and intrusive thoughts.

My perceived attitude drew heavy criticism at times, and I couldn't even understand why I had so much difficulty turning up, paying attention, or sitting down to read or write something. I got through with a combination of taking every possible shortcut (save for cheating) and short, concentrated bursts of studying.

Ultimately I ended up in a well-respected profession where I've progressed reasonably well, but where I had to make career decisions that required as little output from me as possible. While I could outperform my most senior colleagues in more cerebral areas (giving me a lot of value), I really struggled with "the grind" and had to be in-office for long hours, often 7 days per week to (in short bursts) to produce the same amount of work as my colleagues.

Outside of work, not only was self-care a challenge, and not only might I forget to attend appointments (or even important social events) but I'd frequently jeapordize my personal safety (accidentally starting numerous housefires after not turning things off, being one example).

I blamed myself for a long time, vowed to turn over a new leaf with such frequency, but didn't get any better.

Finally, a coworker said/asked - "you know you have ADHD, right?" and I ultimately was diagnosed.

With medication, my ability to focus and my executive function notably improved. Some things that I used to try to strain hard to remember (to the point of repeating what I needed to do out-loud, again and again), only to still forget, are now near effortless. I was able to discover and implement some coping strategies, and my employer made a couple of adjustments (making me far more profitable to have around).

I'm not complaining about my lot in life by any stretch. Other people have different struggles, some far more profound. Given, though, the vast improvements to my life since being diagnosed (and medicated), of course I wish it had happened decades earlier, and of course I sometimes wonder how things may have turned out if it had.

All to say, "pathologizing it" has been extremely helpful, in terms of improvement and mitigation.

Your "high-functioning shortness" example isn't a good one. A shorter person will understand why they have so much difficulty reaching high things. Their teachers and colleagues will not need to have it explained to them that their shorter colleague might have some difficulties reaching high things and that an aide or adjustment might be needed.

Your argument is more like saying that someone who has some hearing ability, and who can function day-to-day largely due to their excellent lip reading skills, but notices that they struggle in various other contexts, wouldn't benefit from getting a hearing test which revealed moderate-high levels of hearing loss (leading to a hearing aide being prescribed and some workplace and social adjustments).

Yep. It’s just more goady ND nonsense. The language used is a dead giveaway.

Usually your SM algorithm is influenced by what you view, OP. I'm getting continual adverts from Curaleaf and other medical cannabis clinics atm (I read a few articles out of interest after a woman at work got prescribed it).

Most people I meet seem neurotypical.

I remember reading a study around ADHD stuff on social media. Only around 25% of posts were considered 'accurate' by experts. 25% were considered 'misleading' and approx 50% were 'subjective'.

I don’t know anyone who is NT based on what I read. Every quirk is a sign. Isn’t anxiety or trauma enough without a ND label?

Misinformation? On social media? Nah, come off it.

Do you also think that everyone who ever misspelled or mispronounced a word has dyslexia? Those are some of the signs, after all.

Autism,is a huge spectrum
It some ways it was easier when they used Asperger's syndrome for some and autism for others ,as there was a bit of a distinction.
Some people say everyone with autism has the same difficulties and there should be no distinctions
Some people say ,someone none verbal and with high support needs in a residential home ,is not on the same level as someone holding a job down and having a family .yet both could have the same diagnosis.
Unless it comes down to masking for the one in the job with a family,and not masking for the other person.
I hear a lot of people saying that more people are being diagnosed with autism these days and everyone seems to have it ..
I think people are more aware now about autism and aware girls with autism don't present as boys do .so more people are being diagnosed because society is more aware generally of what to look for .
I've also heard people say it's easy to get a diagnosis.
As an adult going through the diagnosis process ,it was long and thorough and in depth,with 3 relatives giving information about me ,a huge amount of form filling and two interviews with 3 assessor's who all had to agree I was autistic ,this took 3 years on NHS
My sons getting diagnosed,took slightly less time ,with a lot of input and pushing from the school,but the same amount of forms and interviews and a panel to decide they were autistic.
Definitely left no stone unturned,and I had no doubt a thorough job was done all 3 times .
I was a child of the 1980s in school ,no talking ,no friends, silent or screaming and wetting myself,.I'm so glad girls like me are not being left undiagnosed any more

When you say “I’m OCD” do you mean that you have almost constant intrusive thoughts that are so distressing you can’t continue with your normal daily tasks until you enact certain rituals like obsessive handwashing till your skin cracks, or do you mean that you are generally a careful person who always puts their keys in the basket by the door when they come home?

Bear in mind also that Neurotypical and Neurodiverse definitions have for a very long time been based on Western thinking due to the majority of research and treatments being developed in Western society, due to available funding, academic research and dominant thinking/ ideas.

people with ND conditions tend to mask and compensate to align more closely with Neurotypical, which indicates that the traits present in NT are more prevalent in society, for example, ability to focus, ability to self regulate emotion, ability to network and make connection are all valued in society where productivity is a priority. In other societies these traits are thought about differently and different priorities prevail.

Academics and medics who might define ND v NT have to tread a very tricky path if their research is to meet approval as the risk of straying into pidgeonholing people, making lazy generalisations and discriminating negatively is high, with negative impact of their research being detrimental to society.

I have a friend who I know would not meet the requirements for ASD. But she is painfully shy and always has been. Her shyness affects her life hugely. It affects jobs, friendships.. you name it.
I have ASD and have learnt the tools to overcome my lack of confidence. Next to my friend, I am the most confident and outgoing person you could imagine. My friend just shrinks in social situations and in public.

NT people can experience things that can impact their life hugely. I think people get frustrated that ND claim ownership of the “it affects our life more”.
The reality is that there are NT people out there who do struggle and have to try and find ways to adapt to life, it’s not as straight forward that they breeze through life without the difficulties faced by ND people.

I actually think that it’s probably the other way around- the ND ‘spectrum’ is the norm and NT people are actually a relatively small group of people who don’t experience any issues navigating life. It’s just that people are now getting the confidence to own up that they have always found x, y or z a massive struggle. Years ago, you didn’t mention it and just tried to avoid the things that caused you problems.

I say this as a person diagnosed with Asperger’s (or it was Asperger’s back in the day)

Well you are being ridiculously unreasonable. A lack of confidence is not autism. The bar is set high to get an autism diagnosis and it’s a protected disability for a reason. Autistic people have all the struggles NT have WITH autism and often sensory processing and ADHD on top. The masking you describe is hugely unhelpful for autism people and can often lead to big mental health struggles.

I identify with quite a lot of neurodiverse traits and have only had two long term relationships with men who I now see are clearly autistic. My current partner and I have a DD who is officially diagnosed autistic and she struggles more than either her Dad or I do or ever did. I don’t think I would get an autism diagnosis in terms of the threshold and don’t need one. I have learnt to cope with things I found difficult over time. Her problems seem more extreme though and are causing mental health issues too. Nature vs nurture is often an internal debate I have. We have been much more protective and molly coddling with her than how we were brought up. It is never easy to know if we have exacerbated her problems and how she copes with her condition or not. Maybe having two potentially neurodiverse parents has made things harder for her as well, just not sure. I agree with the OP though, I don’t know hardly anyone who doesn’t have a neurodiverse child anymore. So where does that leave us as a society? Still a lot to learn and understand.

I didn’t say it was autism. Where on earth have you got that from? Are people unable to read and process things nowadays? You have completely missed the point of my post. Spectacularly so. Perhaps go and work on your cognitive skills.

I am sick to death of people not reading things properly and just flying off the handle about it. I was trying to explain that life isn’t always plain sailing for NT people. They also have things that massively impact their lives. I did not state at any point that a lack of confidence is autism.

Neither exclusively. I have to do a lot of managing of my thoughts about some things to keep them under some control.

I do wish people would stop giving handwashing as an example of OCD.

I guess handwashing is given as an example because it’s one of the most frequent compulsions. And I don’t think people would understand many of the others. DH suffered for years and this was one of his. Though there were a few others which seriously screwed up both our lives for a while.

Have you read “The man who couldn’t stop”? He talks about how there seem to be waves of themes of intrusive thoughts. In the 80s/90s a lot of people worried about AIDS, whereas today worrying about Climate Change is more common.

Sorry if I was harsh. I get so annoyed with people using OCD to mean “I have neat handwriting” or other such crap, and I guess this is what the OP is getting wrt ND/NT.

I thought a song stuck in your head was just an earworm and everyone got them!

Really good thread @rainingitspouring2 , thank you.

This wasn’t my daughter’s experience. A tick box questionnaire for both myself and school. An hour long chat with myself (the written summary of which was inaccurate and needed many amendments). Two nurses spent half an hour with my daughter. I’m shocked at how inadequate the assessment process was.