New abortion laws

[Cheesetoastie537]

TW

I'm pro choice but the new potential abortion law changes feel a bit extreme to me. If I've understood right, if a woman was even in late stage of pregnancy (even say 35 weeks) could self abort the pregnancy and not face any charges for the death of a viable baby. I thought the 24 week mark was there for that reason. I know a woman still can't get a medically assisted abortion after 24 weeks (unless certain circumstances) but surely they'll just go home and do it now because theres nothing preventing them. No one should be in that situation surely. But if it was a case that a late pregnancy is now not wanted but a medically assisted abortion is not available and the woman knows they can do it themselves with no charges, wouldn't that just increase self done abortions?

If anything, shouldn't the law just change so that medical abortion at any stage is allowed then to at least make it safe for woman rather than them attempting a self abortion.

I'm not sure if the change in law opens up more issues than it fixes. And in part I feel that there's no protection for late pregnancies that the baby would have survived and now there's no legal charges for their life.

I've never really thought too much about abortion otherthan pro choice and felt the UK had a good middle ground.

It isn't a settled issue, sadly. "Abortion providers say the 1861 law that makes abortion a criminal offence is no longer fit for purpose - and the increase in cases being investigated means they want abortion to be fully decriminalised."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68305991

A miscarriage is not the same as a late abortion.

A miscarriage is not a crime.

Because of recent police investigations into women who miscarried.

It’s not the same at all.

Name another medical procedure anyone gets their panties in such a wad about?
You either accept that a woman has a right to her own body and what happens to it, or you don’t.
And this isn’t about the limit necessarily, it’s about criminalisation. And the fact that abortions even within the current constraints are under the Victorian law still in place, a criminal offence with some loopholes.
No one should be criminalised. Anyone who finds themselves in a position where they feel they have no other option needs compassion and support, not an arrest.

I think in general the current laws around abortion feel very old fashioned and don't really resemble the current medical practice.

I think we have very sensible abortion laws. There is no public demand for change. I don’t understand why it is being pushed through.

It’s healthcare where ectopic pregnancies are concerned
Healthcare where it’s endangering the mothers life (she may have existing children who need her to be alive)

I do have some concerns about this but all of them are based around the safety of women.
Anything that makes abortion less safe worries me but I also don't think it should be illegal so I am not sure to be honest

This isn't about the 35 week self induced abortion, which would be tricky as you'd have to make sure the baby isn't born dead.

The hard bit is where a woman (using pills gained through a simple lie, stashed due to a change of mind, or bought online), induces labour from 22-34 weeks. They are likely to give birth to a live baby that won't survive without medical care.

Are we saying that it should be legal for a woman to induce labour and then watch a newborn slowly suffocate to death?

Realistically this change in law would do little to stop investigations into stillbirths at home (which is what most of the cases relate to) because they'd still need to investigate whether the baby was born alive, and if so, why it died, whether it was murdered etc.

It would mean abortion upto term being legal, providing it's a DIY abortion, even though that's potentially dangerous for the woman, and likely to cause excessive suffering to the baby.

I really hope this proposed amendment fails. If it passes, it won't last beyond the first publicised case of a baby suffocatingly for hours.

And less women forced into abortions. As ive said before I am not saying that I think abortions should be illegal, but there are two sides to this. It is clear that you do not understand what my point is. My point is that women could be coerced into doing very dangerous things to themselves with disastrous consequences. If there is no investigation, there is no consequence for men. There is a middle ground between things never being investigated and abused women being prosecuted.

So…

ectopic pregnancy where theres serious ramifications to mums health isn’t healthcare?
Foetal anomaly incompatible with life isn't health care?
Chorioamniontitus isn’t a health care need?
Eclampsia?
Kidney failure?
Rape?
Mental health?

There’s an awful lot of women’s health situations that would require an abortion for the mother’s health and safety.

But this proposed decriminalisation is literally encouraging women to have DIY abortions. The limit will be 24 weeks, or unlimited if you are prepared to do it yourself. Why are we encouraging something that's even more risks to women than the backstreet abortions everyone wants to avoid a return to?

I think the opposite is surely true? And the process for aborting later pregnancies is different and not really DIY possible.
women aren’t aborting late term pregnancy’s because they are illegal at the moment.

@GarlicMile

With respect, abortion law should not be dictated by abortion providers.

That is like arguing the law on dentistry should be totally decided by dentists (which would be ludicrous).

No I don't get your point.

If abortions were illegal then you think women would be safer?

You think it's better for women to be coerced into having kids they don't want on the off chance someone is forcing another person to have an abortion?

You think that abusive men are going to force 35 week pregnant women to somehow abort at home because now it wouldnt be inveatigated? These men want their victims to have their baby so they have something else to abuse them with.

You're deluded.

What is this middle ground between never being investaged and women being prosecuted?

A woman gets investigated, says she was forced into having a 35 week at home abortion (somehow), man denies this.... then what? We already know the conviction rates for DA and DV are abysmal. Are the police then just going to shrug and say "oh well" and leave her alone?

No, there isn’t, not in this context.

You’re either pro choice, or not.

Do you think it's worth every woman who has a late miscarriage or stillbirth getting investigated for the vanishingly rare occassion that one desperate woman will do something so drastic to her body to terminate a pregnancy?

Who do you think will be encouraged? Do you think your average woman will hit 30 weeks and just have an at home abortion (somehow) because she can now?

All of the statistics prove that women making the choice to terminate do so as early as possible. Do you really think this will change because they know they won't be investigated for terminating a pregnancy at 30 weeks?

What a bullshit post.

No.
For DIY home abortions before about 34 weeks, all you've got to do is take the pills and then let nature take it's course when the baby is born. Babies born that young can't survive without medical care and it not murder to fail to intervene. It might take minutes, hours or days though.

Horrifying.

Or if course a woman can make sure it's born dead, risking huge internal injuries to herself, again, why are we encouraging that?

No, again I didn't say that. I said that any decision made will have consequences on some women. Why aren't you able to see that? I work with victims of DV and DA and I am sure that whilst they may not succeed, many men will be encouraging their partners to give it a good go. It may be news to you that whilst some men want their partners to have the baby, some will not. If you believe that that would never ever happen then I think that you are deluded.

The number of women who would self abort at a late gestation would be vanishingly small...and if it were to happen, I'd imagine they'd have such mental health problems or other vulnerabilities, it would be totally counter productive to prosecute them.

I suggest that you get a different job if you think that restricting abortions is better for these woman (and I include myself in that, as someone who was pregnant and in a refuge where about 80% of us were pregnant).

Your view literally means that abused woman will be prosecuted for the actions of men.

Eh? Abortion providers aren't dictating the law. There have been more than 60 criminal inquiries into pregnancy losses since 2018, compared with almost zero before. Some of the losses were spontaneous.

One of the women was placed under investigation after giving birth prematurely.

Another, Katie (not her real name), has been under investigation for several years for illegally procuring an abortion. She believed that she was approximately seven weeks pregnant when she contacted a provider and received abortion pills through the post.

After taking the pills, she went into labour and gave birth to a stillborn baby. She later realised the pregnancy had progressed beyond the 24-week limit. "After I gave birth I just froze. I didn't know what to do." She went to hospital, where staff called the police. She was arrested on suspicion of self-inducing an abortion illegally and held in police custody.

Do you support the police to prosecute women who have lost pregnancies, for whatever reason, BeachLife?

But we aren't investigating every miscarriage or stillbirth.

We aren't investigating any miscarriages.

And only a tiny tiny proportion of stillbirths, where there are other red flags.

Allowing for these investigations in the very limited circumstances which we currently do, also enables DV situations where someone else induced the abortion, to be picked up.

DV situations where someone else induced the abortion would be covered by Actual Bodily Harm.