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Original poster

New abortion laws

351 replies

Cheesetoastie537 · 17/06/2025 07:41

TW

I'm pro choice but the new potential abortion law changes feel a bit extreme to me. If I've understood right, if a woman was even in late stage of pregnancy (even say 35 weeks) could self abort the pregnancy and not face any charges for the death of a viable baby. I thought the 24 week mark was there for that reason. I know a woman still can't get a medically assisted abortion after 24 weeks (unless certain circumstances) but surely they'll just go home and do it now because theres nothing preventing them. No one should be in that situation surely. But if it was a case that a late pregnancy is now not wanted but a medically assisted abortion is not available and the woman knows they can do it themselves with no charges, wouldn't that just increase self done abortions?

If anything, shouldn't the law just change so that medical abortion at any stage is allowed then to at least make it safe for woman rather than them attempting a self abortion.

I'm not sure if the change in law opens up more issues than it fixes. And in part I feel that there's no protection for late pregnancies that the baby would have survived and now there's no legal charges for their life.

I've never really thought too much about abortion otherthan pro choice and felt the UK had a good middle ground.

OP posts:
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6
ShesTheAlbatross · 17/06/2025 14:43

Smockdressing · 17/06/2025 13:18

I do not believe they will be doing it for funsies either. But I do believe that some men will push their partners to do it, because they will view it as a socially acceptable, legal thing to do.

Show quote history

Push their partners to do what exactly? Because this law will not change what is available from doctors (NHS or otherwise). You will not be able to ask for an abortion at 35 weeks apart from under the very limited existing reasons. So pushing their partners to self-induce labour at home (how?) and then refuse to allow them to go to hospital, and instead kill the baby? Not one single part of that will be legal.

BeachLife2 · 17/06/2025 14:46

@StandFirm

Nope- we are going to end up with no abortion rights at all if your side continue down this road.

The vast majority (not just nut jobs) are perfectly satisfied with the current legal framework. Why should women who terminate their pregnancies illegally not be investigated?

StandFirm · 17/06/2025 14:46

Regarding healthcare- anywhere that restricts access to abortion leads to medical professionals risking prosecution whenever they prioritise the mother's health. It's directly led to decline in the quality of ob/gyn care in some US states.

StandFirm · 17/06/2025 14:48

BeachLife2 · 17/06/2025 14:46

@StandFirm

Nope- we are going to end up with no abortion rights at all if your side continue down this road.

The vast majority (not just nut jobs) are perfectly satisfied with the current legal framework. Why should women who terminate their pregnancies illegally not be investigated?

My point is that currently NONE of it is legal because it has not been decriminalised at all! So effectively it's up to the good will of those in power. Do you not want to safeguard the current status quo because in fact that is what we're talking about here?

BIWI · 17/06/2025 14:49

BeachLife2 · 17/06/2025 14:40

@BIWI

In my view the fact that supporters of these amendments are desperate to underplay their impact says a lot.

The current position ensures that women who illegally end their pregnancies are investigated and punished if appropriate. That is a perfectly reasonable protection and should not be removed.

So not a fan of women’s rights then?

BIWI · 17/06/2025 14:50

@BeachLife2

The vast majority (not just nut jobs) are perfectly satisfied with the current legal framework.

Are they? How do you know this? How many?

Locutus2000 · 17/06/2025 14:56

Coming back to answer some of these questions OP?

VanillaVein · 17/06/2025 14:57

Double post.

VanillaVein · 17/06/2025 14:58

BeachLife2 · 17/06/2025 14:37

@VanillaVein

I have a law degree so my understanding and critical thinking is perfectly fine, thank you.

I mentioned no names. The fact you replied though...

Cattenberg · 17/06/2025 15:01

spoonbillstretford · 17/06/2025 14:19

I'd rather twelve women make poor choices than a single woman who had a natural late miscarriage be the subject of criminal investigation.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68305991

Why we need this law is to stop us ever going in the direction of the US.

Edited
Show quote history

I met a woman whose baby died at home from SIDs when he was a few weeks old. The police questioned her which must have been very unpleasant (although she was very diplomatic when recounting this story).

I don't know where we draw the line. No one wants to see a woman who has lost a baby (at any stage), being treated with anything other than compassion. But on the other hand, a very small percentage of parents do terrible things and they need to be caught.

BeachLife2 · 17/06/2025 15:02

@BIWI

As has been explained, this is not a black and white issue.

Am I 'anti-medicine' if I think that I shouldn't be able to demand whatever prescription I want from my GP?

BeachLife2 · 17/06/2025 15:03

@StandFirm

Again, it is simply not possible for it not to be up to 'the goodwill of those in power'.

We have a system of parliamentary sovereignty in the UK, which means that any law can and will be changed if a majority of MPs agree.

SmudgeButt · 17/06/2025 15:04

I don't have any problem with the OP's post with the "I'm pro choice but"

I'm glad that people are thinking about this and talking about it. I suspect the OP is just thinking the matter through to ensure she understands the issues sufficiently.

What gets me is there is a discussion on a local social media site where the dogs of hell are howling for MPs to be chucked out of parliament if they support the bill because they are obviously supporting murder. And most of the posters there are men. I'd be happier if they just butted out of something they don't understand particularly when so many men have such a horrendous track record about support their own children. OK - rant over.

HeyThereDelila · 17/06/2025 15:08

@LameBorzoi its now being done by abortion pills by post which you can get after nothing but a telephone consultation - that’s how it would still be done after 24 weeks, that’s what’s causing the late term abortions which are now being investigated by the police.

I agree with the OP. Nobody in the country knows this is happening. Effectively legalising abortion up to birth is sickening and is the fastest way to make abortion a culture war issue after it being settled for 50 years. The worst of it is that it’s Labour MPs who brought this about, lobbying for abortion pills by post to be kept after Covid.

I’m pro choice and on the left but this is monstrous and cannot stand.

Crazyworldmum · 17/06/2025 15:09

I agree with you .

HeyThereDelila · 17/06/2025 15:09

This is a good article which sets out WHY this is being brought about:

https://thecritic.co.uk/labour-are-playing-with-fire-on-abortion/

MsNevermore · 17/06/2025 15:14

”I’m pro-choice BUT” 🙄🙄🙄🙄…..there is no “but”. You either trust women to make decisions about their own healthcare or you don’t.
I live in the US.
I experienced my own dire circumstances last summer where I needed life-saving abortion care. It was very touch and go. Very scary. Lots of internal bleeding, and two very much wanted babies lost.

It is not lost on me that if I lived in a state where abortion is criminalised, I would likely be dead because access to care (including medically necessary care) in a timely manner has become a matter of chance. I could also be sitting in a cell, having the circumstances investigated to see if any of it was my fault. I could have had my phone data subpoenaed to see if I was lying about dates etc
It was terrifying enough going through it all without the extra kick in the teeth to go along with that.
This madness absolutely should never ever be happening to women on home turf. I welcome the law change with open arms. Healthcare is not a crime.

StandFirm · 17/06/2025 15:51

BeachLife2 · 17/06/2025 15:03

@StandFirm

Again, it is simply not possible for it not to be up to 'the goodwill of those in power'.

We have a system of parliamentary sovereignty in the UK, which means that any law can and will be changed if a majority of MPs agree.

It's harder to change a law than it is to stop tolerating something. That's just logic. My argument is that if the law passes at least it will be provide more protection to our rights.

TheNightSurgeon · 17/06/2025 16:03

Smockdressing · 17/06/2025 13:51

I understand that. As an example, many men push their partners to get abortions at the moment that they do not want. Legally, that is coercion. Men are not prosecuted for it. If abortions were illegal there would be less abortions that women do not want. I am not saying that abortions should be illegal or woman should be prosecuted for having them. But I believe that legalising them means that more women have them that do not want them.

Show quote history

If abortions were illegal then there would be more women dying, more babies neglected, abandoned and killed, even more men killing women. So I'm not sure what your point is.

You want women to be investigated and prosecuted for something an abusive man has done.

The woman gets abused, then gets a criminal record. What sort of an animal wants that?

BeachLife2 · 17/06/2025 16:15

@MsNevermore

That is a non-sensible statement. Very few issues are as simple as being pro or anti. There is almost always nuance involved.

I am pro-immigration. That doesn't mean I have to believe in open borders. Immigration should be controlled and those not entitled to be here removed.

I am also pro-road safety. However, I wouldn't support making the speed limit 5mph everywhere, as that would be disproportionate to the harm caused.

Abortion is the same. I am fully supportive of the current position, whereby abortion is legal and available up to 26 weeks. However, women who try to end their pregnancies outside these limits absolutely should be held accountable.

nautys · 17/06/2025 16:17

So not pro choice then at all. Interesting that the Op hasn’t bothered to return.

JHound · 17/06/2025 16:17

ShesTheAlbatross · 17/06/2025 11:46

Do you really think that we will have women getting to 35 weeks and deciding “actually, don’t want this, I’ll do an at home abortion”. Do you really think the law is what is stopping this at the moment?
How would you even do it? Induce labour and then what? Kill the baby? Killing a baby born alive would still remain illegal.

Edited

This.

WhereIsMyJumper · 17/06/2025 16:21

Ketzele · 17/06/2025 13:37

It is important to understand why these two amendments are coming from and why now. We've had messily compromised abortion laws in the UK for a long time. I'm saying this from memory and not Google, but I think the 1862 OAP Act makes abortion illegal, and the 1967 Abortion Act provides some exemptions from that.

A number of those exemptions are no longer rational (like two doctors having to approve) and the whole grounds for abortion thing has been a nonsense for a long time and especially since the advent of early medical abortion. Plus, recent reforms have catapulted N Ireland from being the only place in the UK where you couldn't get an abortion, to the UK cou try with the most liberal laws.

For years, pro-choicers have discussed introducing a new abortion law, but always worried that that would provide an opportunity for pro-lifers to flood it with amendments, the most successful of which would affect the very small but very vulnerable group of women who need late abortions. (The UK is generally supportive of legal abortion but very queasy about later abortions.) It was felt safer to stick with the messy make-do of the existing law.

So why has that changed now? Two things, mainly. First is that since the introduction of early medical abortion and then telemedicine (under covid), women have been able, legally and legitimately to have very early abortions with very little medical supervision. And there have been a number of cases where women were prosecuted and criminalised for what was seen as abuse of this eg. lying about their dates in order to use abortion pills in the second trimester.

It's not a good idea to lie to doctors and misuse medication, obviously. But criminalising women who do so is a really poor answer. It incentives vulnerable women to lie and conceal their reproductive situation even more. It doesn't help us understand what is going on and make any necessary changes in service delivery. And we don't do it in any other area of healthcare.

The second reason is that people (Inc Stella Creasy) are spooked about what happened in the US to Roe vs Wade, and by the noises Farage is making about abortion. They're worried that if we miss this opportunity to steer towards decriminalising abortion, we'll risk further criminalisation.

Decriminalisation isn't an abortion free for all, it's just saying that abortion should be conceptualised within UK law as healthcare, not as a criminal offence with exceptions. Until we do that, how do we get to having it resourced and provided appropriately, with NHS doctors trained to deliver it?

As for the hypotheticals about women now feeling free to do their own late term abortions, think about it. There is no way of inducing your own late abortion without putting yourself at horrific risk. And if you manage it and give birth to a live baby, you are still not allowed to kill it (there are laws - other laws!). And if you are so desperate/terrified/mentally incompetent that you attempt to poison yourself or beat your stomach or whatever, and you are rushed to hospital, should the doctors call the cops to haul you to prison, is that the best response? Is it really?

Abortion is healthcare. As with other healthcare, it works best when there is honesty between us and our healthcare workers, and good clinical processes to ensure drugs are administered safely and appropriately. It shouldn't be part of criminal law.

Brilliant post!! I wasn’t sure what to make of it until reading this but this is such a logical argument, I can’t counter it. Thank you

Fundayout2025 · 17/06/2025 16:21

BeachLife2 · 17/06/2025 16:15

@MsNevermore

That is a non-sensible statement. Very few issues are as simple as being pro or anti. There is almost always nuance involved.

I am pro-immigration. That doesn't mean I have to believe in open borders. Immigration should be controlled and those not entitled to be here removed.

I am also pro-road safety. However, I wouldn't support making the speed limit 5mph everywhere, as that would be disproportionate to the harm caused.

Abortion is the same. I am fully supportive of the current position, whereby abortion is legal and available up to 26 weeks. However, women who try to end their pregnancies outside these limits absolutely should be held accountable.

It's 24 weeks actually ( used to be 28) . However I'd imagine the amount of women that would choose terminate a pregnancy " just because " after that is really miniscule. As stated earlier I was with my DD when she terminated at 25 weeks. No one would go through that unnecessarily.

First involving a scan to locate where the heart is, then a needle inserted with drugs to stop the heartbeat ( can see all this on the scan)

Then sent home to come back in 2 days for an induction

Autumn38 · 17/06/2025 16:24

ShesTheAlbatross · 17/06/2025 11:46

Do you really think that we will have women getting to 35 weeks and deciding “actually, don’t want this, I’ll do an at home abortion”. Do you really think the law is what is stopping this at the moment?
How would you even do it? Induce labour and then what? Kill the baby? Killing a baby born alive would still remain illegal.

Edited

So why would it need decriminalising if no one would do it?? Genuinely asking.