New abortion laws

[Cheesetoastie537]

TW

I'm pro choice but the new potential abortion law changes feel a bit extreme to me. If I've understood right, if a woman was even in late stage of pregnancy (even say 35 weeks) could self abort the pregnancy and not face any charges for the death of a viable baby. I thought the 24 week mark was there for that reason. I know a woman still can't get a medically assisted abortion after 24 weeks (unless certain circumstances) but surely they'll just go home and do it now because theres nothing preventing them. No one should be in that situation surely. But if it was a case that a late pregnancy is now not wanted but a medically assisted abortion is not available and the woman knows they can do it themselves with no charges, wouldn't that just increase self done abortions?

If anything, shouldn't the law just change so that medical abortion at any stage is allowed then to at least make it safe for woman rather than them attempting a self abortion.

I'm not sure if the change in law opens up more issues than it fixes. And in part I feel that there's no protection for late pregnancies that the baby would have survived and now there's no legal charges for their life.

I've never really thought too much about abortion otherthan pro choice and felt the UK had a good middle ground.

That would still be illegal.

@of course it's healthcare. If a woman is forced into continuing an unwanted pregnancy then it doesn't do her health much good . Pregnancy has higher physical risks for the mother than not being pregnant and it wouldn't do someones mental health much good being forced to continue with a pregnancy that's unwanted

It's an absolute disgrace. 24 weeks is plenty of time to make a decision. Anything after that should be considered murder.

Another one just blatantly not paying attention to what's actually going on here

what has happened to comprehension and critical thinking? is it just the Internet?

Like my DD at 25 weeks then?

I'd rather twelve women make poor choices than a single woman who had a natural late miscarriage be the subject of criminal investigation.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68305991

Why we need this law is to stop us ever going in the direction of the US.

Exactly this. I am all for any legislation that protects womens bodily autonomy in the event that Farage and his ilk end up in power, although I desperately hope that day never comes.

So a woman gives birth to a live child post 25 weeks, fails to give it the care it needs, and it dies? I think theres already a law covering that scenario.

The law being looked at currently is about decriminalising abortion, not murdering a human being.

It’s posts like this that make me question why we give everyone the right to vote. The ignorance is breathtaking.

There is no change to abortion law, it is just decriminalising women who find themselves in a situation where post 24 week pregnancy termination occurs. No-one does that for the hell of it. In the few cases that exist the circumstances are tragic and the women need help and support, not jail.

Any doctors or other people that participate in late term abortions outside the law will still
be prosecuted, but not the women themselves who are often victims.

Me too.

Please god let people understand the difference between decriminalisation and legalisation.

@Summerhillsquare

They amount to the same thing. Sorry, but I do think there should be criminal consequences for someone who decides to procure a backstreet abortion at 35 weeks.

but surely they'll just go home and do it now because theres nothing preventing them.

How many women do you think are leaving it to 24 weeks to ask for a termination and then going to go home and “self abort” because apparently nothing is stopping them now? This is just beyond ridiculous and so utterly unlikely.

Because we can't let things go the way they went in the US where it was never enshrined in law. We need to make it a right, not something that is simply not prosecuted. It's not the same thing. And we need to do that ESPECIALLY if there is a risk of Farage ever being PM.

@BaronessEllarawrosaurus

Nonsense. I don't think I should be allowed to rock up to my GP and demand whatever treatment I want regardless of the medical advice.

We already have a perfectly good legal framework for abortion. I am a centrist and in my view we should always be wary of those pushing extreme positions.

This is an extreme, ideologically-driven proposal and it should be opposed just as much as the nonsense spewed by Farage and co.

@StandFirm

There shouldn't be a right to procure an abortion after 26 weeks though.

We also have a convention that no parliament can bind its successors, so in not convinced that Farage and co could not simply overturn such legislation.

That is more likely now btw that this has been turned into a live issue for absolutely no good reason.

The vast majority of people are perfectly happy with the current position.

It's a really quite concerning how many have such a lack of critical thinking and understanding of such a simple concept, in this case a specific law. The attempt at whataboutery is pathetic.

The current position is not protected legally. The proposal if for a proper legal framework to be finally put in place.

@VanillaVein

I have a law degree so my understanding and critical thinking is perfectly fine, thank you.

Well evidently not!

Here's the summary in full as posted on the BBC news website:

A law change aimed at decriminalising abortion will be debated in the House of Commons on Tuesday.
Two Labour MPs, Tonia Antoniazzi and Stella Creasy, have tabled rival amendments to the Crime and Policing Bill.
Speaker Sir Lindsay Hoyle could pick one or both amendments to be debated by MPs, but is likely to only pick one to go to a vote.
MPs are usually given a free vote on abortion, meaning they do not have to follow any party line on the subject.
What does the current law say?
The current law in England and Wales states that abortion is illegal but allowed up to the first 24 weeks of pregnancy and beyond that in certain circumstances such as if the woman's life is in danger.
Abortions have to be approved by two doctors, who check if one of a list of criteria have been met - for example, if the pregnancy poses a risk to the physical or mental health of the woman.
Recent law changes have allowed women to access pills to be taken at home to terminate their pregnancies under 10 weeks.
In 2022, the most recent data available, external, 252,122 abortions were reported in England and Wales - the highest number since records began.
Abortion providers have reported receiving 100 requests for medical records from police officers in relation to suspected abortion offences in the last five years.
Last year, abortion provider MSI told the BBC, it was aware of 60 criminal inquiries in England and Wales since 2018, compared to almost zero before.
Six women have appeared in court in England charged with ending or attempting to end their own pregnancy outside abortion law, in the past three years.
Dr Jonathan Lord, medical director at MSI, said the organisation believes the "unprecedented" number of women being investigated could be linked to the police's increased awareness of the availability of the "pills by post scheme".
What would Tonia Antoniazzi's amendment do?
Tonia Antoniazzi's amendment aims to prevent women from being investigated, arrested, prosecuted or imprisoned for terminating their own pregnancies.
She has argued that the investigations are "dehumanising and prolonged and the women forced to endure them are often extraordinarily vulnerable".
She said those investigated can be victims of domestic abuse and violence, human trafficking and sexual exploitation or women who have given birth prematurely.
"The reality is that no woman wakes up 24 weeks pregnant or more and suddenly decides to end their own pregnancy outside a hospital or clinic.
"But some women, in desperate circumstances, make choices that many of us would struggle to understand. What they need is compassion and care, not the threat of criminal prosecution."
Her amendment would maintain punishments for medical professionals and violent partners who end a pregnancy outside of the existing law.
It has received the backing from 176 MPs and the main abortion providers.
The Society for the Protection of Unborn Children has said the amendment is an "extreme and dangerous proposal" that would "effectively decriminalise abortions".
How is Stella Creasy's amendment different?
Stella Creasy has put forward a rival amendment which would enshrine abortion access as a human right and also aims to prevent women who have terminated their own pregnancies from being investigated.
Creasy has said her amendment goes further than her Labour colleague's proposal, by offering "protection to all those involved in ensuring that women can access safe and legal abortions".
Creasy has argued that Antoniazzi's amendment would not stop the authorities investigating "the partners of people who had an abortion or the medics who provided the abortions and it would not prevent demands for women to give evidence as part of that process".
It is backed by 108 MPs but not abortion providers. Rachael Clarke from the British Pregnancy Advisory Service has said Creasy's amendment is not the right way to achieve "generational change".
Speaking to the Radio 4's Today programme last week, Ms Clarke said abortion law is "incredibly complex", adding: "It is essential that any huge changes to abortion law is properly considered."
The Society for the Protection of Unborn Children has described Creasy's amendment as "even more extreme" than that of Antoniazzi's adding: "There's no way to bring an abusive partner who causes the death of an unborn baby to justice."

@StandFirm

Nothing can be 'protected legally' forever in the UK.

The convention in the UK is that Parliament is sovereign, so any law can be changed with a majority of votes.

@BIWI

In my view the fact that supporters of these amendments are desperate to underplay their impact says a lot.

The current position ensures that women who illegally end their pregnancies are investigated and punished if appropriate. That is a perfectly reasonable protection and should not be removed.

This this this this this

It is absolutely crucial to decriminalise abortion. The only nut jobs who want to prosecute women for their choices and infantilise them (because what does that mean other than we're too fucking incompetent to decide what's best, think about it...) are the extremists of the kinds of SPUC who also happen to be anti contraception! Anyone who wants to value women as fully fledged human beings should be outraged that it is still considered CRIMINAL to abort but 'tolerated' up to a certain point. Ladies, that means we actually have no rights here. Time for it to change.