To be concerned about my 8yo’s complete lack of empathy?

[Brighdaytime]

I am a single parent to two children DS 8 and DD 7. My son is a very unempathetic child and I do not know how to bridge that gap or why it is happening? He is a lovely boy until he thinks that he has been wronged in some way.

for example, we’re away this weekend and we were going to go to the park, so I mentioned if to my children but decided to stay at the disco for longer. When on the way home I mentioned that we were going to go straight home he was infuriated, told me that I was a liar and not kind to him and had lied to him and had the biggest meltdown. We got home and I then told him to put his pyjamas on and he cried for a few minutes before I went in and discussed all of the nice things I had done for him beach/ice cream/ new toy etc and how his behaviour made me feel and also explained the consequences of his actions (having to go to bed straight away). He then cried for a good 10 minutes before I went back in to discuss why he was crying and it was because he felt sad because I had been mean to him and he didn’t understand why I had done so!

he also does not think about doing nice things for people, feels very personally attacked at the consequences of his actions being called out etc, etc

He’s 8. He got upset because he didn't get his own way. It’s not a lack of empathy. Best thing to do is ignore this behaviour. Shouting/gently explaining allows the conversation/reaction to continue. It is OK to say you're not doing something and leave it at that. I used to do that as a child and so did my daughter my mum ignored it (she's a psychiatrist and psychologist), as I ignored it. It can actually be sign of your child becoming a very balanced and empathetic adult. Ignoring the behaviour wont hurt him, it'll help him learn to rationalise emotions himself.

YABU - you’re away anyway, it wouldn’t have hurt to have a quick 10 minutes at the park at 7:45 instead of 7.

Of course he’d be disappointed when he was looking forward to something that you had said he’d do! Sorry, you’re the one lacking empathy, not your son!

Please explain how a disco is not family friendly.

I read your follow up and think you’re being unfair to your child. You were the only one who knew the impact of staying later at the disco, they probably didn’t even know the time. So it would have been a total surprise.

parenting unfortunately isn’t a maths problem - add one toy and two sweets and you’re guaranteed an easy evening. You had a chaotic event, changed the plans, brought two tired children home after a long and exhausting day… it was bound to be a rough evening. My kids would both have struggled with this.

Children can’t be empathetic about the sorts of challenges you’re experiencing as they don’t have that kind of responsibility. You’d hope he’d give you a hug if you cut yourself or help a younger child or any number of other things but there’s no chance he’s going to offset a bad moment with a good one hours before. Children live in the moment

He shouldn’t have to feel grateful or feel empathy for you. You’re the parent. He’s a child. You changed the plans for something he was looking forward to, then blamed him for being upset. Poor boy.

It’s completely expected that telling a young child you’re going to go to the park and then taking that away with no warning to do something you want to do is probably going to cause a negative reaction.

Agree it is op who is lacking in empathy. Also a touch narcissistic trying to to make it about you "praise me, I am the bringer of nice things and I must be recognised"

Explanations are always good with toddlers and small children. We are leaving the park in 15 minutes, then we are leaving the park in 5 minutes. Sows the seed. Let's them know what's coming, then it's not a shock.

did you actually discuss it with your son and daughter? Did you give them the option? Did you ask or did you just assume?

you planned on leaving disco at 7pm (dud they know that, were they told beforehand?) but stayed till 7:45pm because all having such a good time.

but did you actually explain that? say we are having such a good time, We've stayed longer than I expected so we don't have time to go to the park now. or do you want to leave now and we can have a quick five minutes in the park?

I bet you didn't give him the option.
in future do so.

Kindly, you told your children you were going to the park then cancelled at the last moment. No wonder he was upset. A child doesn't think no worries, I had an ice cream and a toy, that's okay, they see what's in the moment. In this moment, mum promised me something and lied to me.

“We had gone to a kids disco and was planning on leaving at 7 but stayed until 7.45 as we were having such a nice time dancing/playing etc until the kids said that their feet hurt.”

Who is “we”? Are you sure both your children were having an equally good time? Given that you left 45 minutes later than expected, could you not have said, “Well, we’ll only be able to have 15 minutes in the park, but we can come back tomorrow”? If the park had been the bit that your DS had most been looking forward to, I can quite see why he was upset - and it has nothing to do with empathy and everything to do with disappointment. Your DS is only 8 - don’t expect adult behaviour from a kid. And don’t, either, be unreliable as a parent by way of promising something your son wants and then reneging on it.

Where is the lack of empathy? I didn't see an example of it to be honest.

Okay, so it's you who seems to be lacking in empathy, not your little boy.

You asked how to deal with it. The best thing you can do is acknowledge his feelings and comfort him if he's crying. You asked him why he was crying and he opened up and told you he felt sad. Acknowledge that emotion and let him know you understand why he is sad. Then go from there.

At the minimum you need some parenting classes, if you can do that, and you would greatly benefit from a therapist.

Listing all the "nice" things you do for a kid is both a waste of time and a manipulative tactic.

Why not give him a hug and listen to what is bothering him? Why not apologize for having changed the plans he was looking forward to?? Why not leave earlier so the kids are not so exhausted they go into a meltdown.

With children at 8 & 7 you should be good at this stuff by now.

He’s just annoyed because you lied to him about taking him to the park nothing to do with not having empathy

@Brighdaytime I think your last sentence explains it: you're tired because you have the children on your own. Therefore you expected an "adult" comprehension of your 8 year old son and judge hos lack of it and disappointment as him lacking empathy. You were the one lacking empathy; his response to sudden change of plans was pretty typical of an 8 year old.

Do you have family/friends around you? Because it does sound like you are in need of someone recognising your needs, which is legitimate, but you can not expect that from your children yet, they are too young. If not, maybe therapy could be useful ; a place where you get to focus on you. Because I get it; it's hard when you're on your own and nobody is there to validate your feelings. But do not put that on your children, you have to find it elsewhere.

Sending a virtual hug 💗

I agree with PPs. Parenting is tiring but try not to blame tbem
when you change the plans.

Very gently he is 8 years old and was over tired and disappointed.
i used to hate it as a kid when my Mum reminded me of all the things she had done for me, most of which were standard parenting, it all becomes very transactional ie I did this for you, so you should be grateful.
In your situation I would have taken them to the park but explained you wouldn’t be able to stay very long because you had stayed too long at the disco.
Your son simply took you at your word and then struggled with the change of plan, that isn’t a lack of empathy.

He is 8…….. you told him you were taking him to the park which he was obviously looking forward to and then you back-tracked and denied him that visit to the park. Little wonder that he got upset and struggled to comprehend your reasoning.
He must be so confused by you attempting to justify your actions based on all the treats he had received that day. If you aren’t sure if an activity will happen then don’t plant that seed in a child’s mind and then pull the rug from under them……that is cruel.
I get that everyone has to face disappointment in life but there is a gentler way to explain plans……..maybe consider saying “if we go to xxxxxxx for a shorter time we could then go to yyyyyy and have some fun there” !
Above all, talk to your children, communicate with them……they’re not mind readers.

"i used to hate it as a kid when my Mum reminded me of all the things she had done for me, most of which were standard parenting, it all becomes very transactional ie I did this for you, so you should be grateful."

Yes, it's very manipulative. And borderline abusive imo. The OP seems very distant from her children and cannot connect and empathise with them. I agree with a previous poster that she needs parenting classes. And an empathy chip inserted. Her poor son! He shows more awareness and reasoning skills than she does.

This all sounds pretty normal for a child dealing with a disappointment. Of course I absolutely understand the logic of your decision, but to an 8 year old it just feels like they're being deprived of a treat they were promised. It takes a long time for children to learn how to tolerate disappointment without feeling really aggrieved and hard done by.

Lots of kids really struggle with a change of plan. They can also have a really strong sense of justice which might to us look misplaced but is very real to them. He feels very strongly that he was wronged because he was told one thing and it didn't happen. He can't rationalise that there were good reasons for your decision because he's still developing the skills that allow him to have that flexibility.

Some kids struggle more than others, especially if they are neurodivergent, but all children have to learn how to process these feelings and it takes time.

Talking about the other nice things you've done for him won't help him process the emotion, and it just makes your relationship seem transactional. Next time try approaching with empathy and helping him name the feelings - 'you're really disappointed because I said we would go to the park and now the plan has changed. That has made you really angry. I get it. I get disappointed and angry too when exciting plans change. Let's make a new plan for when we're next going to the park.'

He isn't immediately going to beam like Pollyanna and say 'thank you mother I feel so much better!'. He will still stew and be mean and feel hard done by. But if you keep practicing showing empathy for his feelings, acknowledging that they're valid, holding boundaries and giving him better tools for expressing and processing his feelings, over time he will learn to be more resilient to disappointment.

@Brighdaytime you’re getting a hard time here and as per a lot of people haven’t read your update.

Sounds like you’re doing a great job as a single parent which is no mean feat in itself. DS has a meltdown which was unexpected and things got out of hand. It’s really easy to come onto mumsnet and explain all the ways to gentle parent when you’re not in the situation yourself especially when you were not anticipating that reaction. He’s 8 not 4 so I would expect that most 8 year olds could cope with a change in plan like this so perhaps you’re not used to constantly trying to regulate yourself in the midst of a meltdown or have all the right tools immediately ready to go.

I’m going against the grain here but don’t think you were being manipulative at all by explaining that you’d done some nice things that’s day in order to calm him down and see the bigger picture. Unfortunately it didn’t work. Obviously more context is needed in exactly how you said it but from what you said in your OP it doesn’t sound like you were making your relationship transactional at all. Personally I found it quite anchoring when this happened to me as a child, it helped me gain perspective. I have quite a different perspective anyway as both my parents were born in a different country with very different cultures and I was reminded regularly about how lucky I was. I didn’t find this manipulative and think I was actually really grateful to my parents.

If this is a one off be kind to yourself and your son - these things happen. No one is perfect and every parent has shit days (no matter what they say on mumsnet). If you feel like this is repeated behaviour and he’s very rigid/ emotionally dysregulated when plans change you could do some reading on how to manage this yourself and then speak to school to see if they’ve had any issues / concerns ?

its not easy and we don’t always get it right, but you love your kids and are doing an amazing job for them on your own - even when it’s tough - remember you’re doing a great job

Totally agree, it was part of wider picture that added up to an unhappy childhood. Now that we are grown ups one child has no contact with her, one has very infrequent visits and one went no contact for years, had therapy and now has regular contact because ultimately she’s elderly and alone, but knows the type of personality they are dealing with.
Parenthood is tough and I do a lot for my children for which given their ages they never seem grateful for.
I know plenty of adults who would be annoyed at something they were looking forward to being cancelled by someone else, expecting an 8 year old to suck it up and not be upset is unrealistic.

He might be neurodiverse and doesn't understand. My middle daughter cannot cope with a change in plan, if i say something i must fulfill it, a change in plan will result in a meltdown.

If reminding him of the nice things you've done doesn't work in this situation then I'd stop doing it. That one doesn't work on me either.