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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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19
Fetaface · 15/06/2025 18:51

miraxxx · 15/06/2025 18:38

BINGO!! Knew someone would label me mental!

Let bystanders read this reaction. It does speak for itself.

Just like the good old days! Any woman who speaks out about the white men are labelled as mental to silence! Absolutely hilarious.

Ah white men. Cannot be this supercilious about brown or muslim men. How strange that the "white men" countries are so far ahead on child and women protection while the "brown men" countries aren't doing so well?

I am a very deep brown myself, fyi.

Mate I got CSE changed from level 2 (family support) to level 4 (SS and police involvement) - what have you done?
Fuck all! Tried to silence victims of rape it seems!

Ah then again, you don't know me, what volunteer work I have done, how I have supported survivors of sexual crimes. This is not a competition between you and me but your aggression and defensiveness is quite telling.

Grand - so what are you diagnosing me with?

Dared to speak about white men disorder? Yeah you seem to have an issue with me saying that white men in the UK hate women and are not held to account and if anyone does they are labelled as mental which you just proved me correct.

This is not aggression sorry but you need to learn what that means if you think me disagreeing with you and calling you out as a liar is aggression! - you have no idea then clearly that me disputing that you are lying about me and falsely labelling me and acting as an abuser is not aggression.

Of course I will get defensive when you try and pretend I am mental to silence me and then pretend I am doing nothing all the while I have helped many many CSE victims so yes I will defend that.

Fetaface · 15/06/2025 18:54

EasternStandard · 15/06/2025 18:45

Ok so your answer is nowhere. You do have to live somewhere even if you’d like to avoid the question.

I didn;t avoid the question. I answered it. Just not in the way that you liked so you pretended I didn;t answer.

What you mean is you only wanted a choice of two answers - I can either choose a place where men hate women and can freely act on it or a place where men hate women and can act on it to some degree.

You asked which I would prefer. I answered none as I wouldn't prefer any place that hates women.

So while you wanted one of two answers you didn't like me having the freedom of answering with my own choice. You wanted to control my answer to being one of the ones you wanted me to give not one that I had the freedom to give. Ironic eh?

EasternStandard · 15/06/2025 18:58

Fetaface · 15/06/2025 18:54

I didn;t avoid the question. I answered it. Just not in the way that you liked so you pretended I didn;t answer.

What you mean is you only wanted a choice of two answers - I can either choose a place where men hate women and can freely act on it or a place where men hate women and can act on it to some degree.

You asked which I would prefer. I answered none as I wouldn't prefer any place that hates women.

So while you wanted one of two answers you didn't like me having the freedom of answering with my own choice. You wanted to control my answer to being one of the ones you wanted me to give not one that I had the freedom to give. Ironic eh?

It’s a bit of a non answer to say you don’t want to live anywhere. Given that’s not possible, you do have to be somewhere. Anyway it’s derailing the thread on something that doesn’t make sense.

TildaSwan · 15/06/2025 19:01

EasternStandard · 15/06/2025 18:58

It’s a bit of a non answer to say you don’t want to live anywhere. Given that’s not possible, you do have to be somewhere. Anyway it’s derailing the thread on something that doesn’t make sense.

And that's exactly their intention! Divert attention away from the discussion at hand, deflect deflect deflect.

Fetaface · 15/06/2025 19:05

EasternStandard · 15/06/2025 18:58

It’s a bit of a non answer to say you don’t want to live anywhere. Given that’s not possible, you do have to be somewhere. Anyway it’s derailing the thread on something that doesn’t make sense.

It is an answer. You asked me to answer and I did.

What you wanted was one or the other. You wanted to control how I answered and when you couldn't then you spat your dummy out.

Yes you are derailing the thread. Lets get back to holding ALL rapists accountable not just those who have brown skin! The very offensive belief that I have of holding ALL rapists to account not just some has derailed the whole thread!

Fetaface · 15/06/2025 19:07

TildaSwan · 15/06/2025 19:01

And that's exactly their intention! Divert attention away from the discussion at hand, deflect deflect deflect.

It really is as they do not like people talking about holding all rapists to account so deflect and try and silence then go back to just brown rapists are the issue lines.

So glad we are back on track of talking about holding all rapists to account and calling out the institutions that actively hide white rapist issues within society.

Glad you support that.

TildaSwan · 15/06/2025 19:09

Fetaface · 15/06/2025 19:07

It really is as they do not like people talking about holding all rapists to account so deflect and try and silence then go back to just brown rapists are the issue lines.

So glad we are back on track of talking about holding all rapists to account and calling out the institutions that actively hide white rapist issues within society.

Glad you support that.

If you say so.

EasternStandard · 15/06/2025 19:09

Fetaface · 15/06/2025 19:05

It is an answer. You asked me to answer and I did.

What you wanted was one or the other. You wanted to control how I answered and when you couldn't then you spat your dummy out.

Yes you are derailing the thread. Lets get back to holding ALL rapists accountable not just those who have brown skin! The very offensive belief that I have of holding ALL rapists to account not just some has derailed the whole thread!

It was you who said you’d choose nowhere. I find that a bit nonsensical. No ‘dummy’ or whatever just not really going anywhere so will leave it there.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 15/06/2025 19:39

miraxxx · 15/06/2025 18:19

Do you think the institutionalised misogyny of the Uk is similar to Afghanistan?

We're talking about girls from the UK being failed by UK institutions.

Hairgrip · 15/06/2025 19:56

There's an awful lot of Not My Nigel going on in here.

OpheliaWasntMad · 15/06/2025 20:03

MiloMinderbinder925 · 15/06/2025 19:39

We're talking about girls from the UK being failed by UK institutions.

“We're talking about girls from the UK being failed by UK institutions”
Yes - but you missed out the reason why they were failed.
The institutions were afraid of being labelled racist if they drew awareness to the fact that the grooming gangs were of Pakistani origin.
That reluctance to acknowledge uncomfortable realities is a big part of the reason why the girls were not protected properly

MiloMinderbinder925 · 15/06/2025 20:10

OpheliaWasntMad · 15/06/2025 20:03

“We're talking about girls from the UK being failed by UK institutions”
Yes - but you missed out the reason why they were failed.
The institutions were afraid of being labelled racist if they drew awareness to the fact that the grooming gangs were of Pakistani origin.
That reluctance to acknowledge uncomfortable realities is a big part of the reason why the girls were not protected properly

Edited

That's one of the factors certainly and was picked up in the Casey report. The main factor was misogyny. Police, social workers and care staff dismissed girls as young as ten as having chosen a 'certain lifestyle.' They weren't considered victims and the men groomed and raped with impunity.

Fetaface · 15/06/2025 20:15

MiloMinderbinder925 · 15/06/2025 20:10

That's one of the factors certainly and was picked up in the Casey report. The main factor was misogyny. Police, social workers and care staff dismissed girls as young as ten as having chosen a 'certain lifestyle.' They weren't considered victims and the men groomed and raped with impunity.

This!! The definition sadly labels the victims as the problem and still to this day it labels them. The definition calls it prostitution still which is sick in this day that this is still what is a legal definition.

NeedAnyHelpWithThatPaperBag · 15/06/2025 20:27

In the spirit of "only someone who has lived experience of something can justifiably criticise", another element has to be the unintended consequences of well meaning middle class left wingers with their "non judgementalism", due to being intellectual observers rather than lived experience participants?

OpheliaWasntMad · 15/06/2025 20:28

MiloMinderbinder925 · 15/06/2025 20:10

That's one of the factors certainly and was picked up in the Casey report. The main factor was misogyny. Police, social workers and care staff dismissed girls as young as ten as having chosen a 'certain lifestyle.' They weren't considered victims and the men groomed and raped with impunity.

I agree there are many intersecting factors
Misogyny - in particular directed at working class girls and race ( the vulnerability and race of the girls and the race of the abusers who saw them as an easy target)

Barr77 · 15/06/2025 20:28

MiloMinderbinder925 · 15/06/2025 20:10

That's one of the factors certainly and was picked up in the Casey report. The main factor was misogyny. Police, social workers and care staff dismissed girls as young as ten as having chosen a 'certain lifestyle.' They weren't considered victims and the men groomed and raped with impunity.

I agree that misogyny played a huge role — that's been well documented in the Casey Report and others. The way police and social workers dismissed these girls as making “lifestyle choices” was appalling and clearly rooted in deep institutional sexism.

But we also can’t ignore what the Jay Report (2014) and the Casey Review of Rotherham Council (2015) made explicitly clear: in cases like Rotherham, Rochdale, and Telford, a significant number of perpetrators were from Pakistani Muslim backgrounds, and cultural and ethnic dynamics absolutely shaped how the abuse played out — and how institutions failed to respond.

The Jay Report found that over 1,400 girls were abused in Rotherham alone, with many of the offenders being British Pakistani men. It also noted that authorities repeatedly failed to act, in part because they were afraid of being accused of racism. The Casey Review backed this up, describing a culture of cover-up and denial, where officials avoided addressing the ethnic aspect even when it was clearly relevant.

Authorities were reluctant to act or speak up because they feared being seen as racist. That fear directly contributed to the abuse continuing unchecked. So while misogyny was a core issue, political sensitivity around race and culture was not just “a factor” — it was central to the institutional paralysis.

This doesn’t mean painting whole communities with the same brush — most people in those communities were not involved and were horrified. But brushing over the ethnic and cultural aspect completely is also wrong. It’s possible — and necessary — to confront both truths: that this was about misogyny, and that cultural taboos, community silence, and institutional fear of racism accusations all played a role.

If we want real justice and real reform, we need to face the full picture, not just the parts that fit a preferred narrative.

OpheliaWasntMad · 15/06/2025 20:31

Barr77 · 15/06/2025 20:28

I agree that misogyny played a huge role — that's been well documented in the Casey Report and others. The way police and social workers dismissed these girls as making “lifestyle choices” was appalling and clearly rooted in deep institutional sexism.

But we also can’t ignore what the Jay Report (2014) and the Casey Review of Rotherham Council (2015) made explicitly clear: in cases like Rotherham, Rochdale, and Telford, a significant number of perpetrators were from Pakistani Muslim backgrounds, and cultural and ethnic dynamics absolutely shaped how the abuse played out — and how institutions failed to respond.

The Jay Report found that over 1,400 girls were abused in Rotherham alone, with many of the offenders being British Pakistani men. It also noted that authorities repeatedly failed to act, in part because they were afraid of being accused of racism. The Casey Review backed this up, describing a culture of cover-up and denial, where officials avoided addressing the ethnic aspect even when it was clearly relevant.

Authorities were reluctant to act or speak up because they feared being seen as racist. That fear directly contributed to the abuse continuing unchecked. So while misogyny was a core issue, political sensitivity around race and culture was not just “a factor” — it was central to the institutional paralysis.

This doesn’t mean painting whole communities with the same brush — most people in those communities were not involved and were horrified. But brushing over the ethnic and cultural aspect completely is also wrong. It’s possible — and necessary — to confront both truths: that this was about misogyny, and that cultural taboos, community silence, and institutional fear of racism accusations all played a role.

If we want real justice and real reform, we need to face the full picture, not just the parts that fit a preferred narrative.

Absolutely

MiloMinderbinder925 · 15/06/2025 20:32

OpheliaWasntMad · 15/06/2025 20:28

I agree there are many intersecting factors
Misogyny - in particular directed at working class girls and race ( the vulnerability and race of the girls and the race of the abusers who saw them as an easy target)

I don't agree. The Casey report said that the girls were chosen because they were out late at night and vulnerable. The men were taxi drivers or ran food outlets and involved in the night time economy. I doubt they were choosy over who they groomed; they were predators.

Fetaface · 15/06/2025 20:36

Barr77 · 15/06/2025 20:28

I agree that misogyny played a huge role — that's been well documented in the Casey Report and others. The way police and social workers dismissed these girls as making “lifestyle choices” was appalling and clearly rooted in deep institutional sexism.

But we also can’t ignore what the Jay Report (2014) and the Casey Review of Rotherham Council (2015) made explicitly clear: in cases like Rotherham, Rochdale, and Telford, a significant number of perpetrators were from Pakistani Muslim backgrounds, and cultural and ethnic dynamics absolutely shaped how the abuse played out — and how institutions failed to respond.

The Jay Report found that over 1,400 girls were abused in Rotherham alone, with many of the offenders being British Pakistani men. It also noted that authorities repeatedly failed to act, in part because they were afraid of being accused of racism. The Casey Review backed this up, describing a culture of cover-up and denial, where officials avoided addressing the ethnic aspect even when it was clearly relevant.

Authorities were reluctant to act or speak up because they feared being seen as racist. That fear directly contributed to the abuse continuing unchecked. So while misogyny was a core issue, political sensitivity around race and culture was not just “a factor” — it was central to the institutional paralysis.

This doesn’t mean painting whole communities with the same brush — most people in those communities were not involved and were horrified. But brushing over the ethnic and cultural aspect completely is also wrong. It’s possible — and necessary — to confront both truths: that this was about misogyny, and that cultural taboos, community silence, and institutional fear of racism accusations all played a role.

If we want real justice and real reform, we need to face the full picture, not just the parts that fit a preferred narrative.

What caused them to fail to respond to white and black grooming gangs?

Fetaface · 15/06/2025 20:38

OpheliaWasntMad · 15/06/2025 20:28

I agree there are many intersecting factors
Misogyny - in particular directed at working class girls and race ( the vulnerability and race of the girls and the race of the abusers who saw them as an easy target)

What made them see brown girls as an easy target?

OpheliaWasntMad · 15/06/2025 20:38

MiloMinderbinder925 · 15/06/2025 20:32

I don't agree. The Casey report said that the girls were chosen because they were out late at night and vulnerable. The men were taxi drivers or ran food outlets and involved in the night time economy. I doubt they were choosy over who they groomed; they were predators.

It is possible the abusers deliberately targeted white girls because they made judgements about their “morality “ and “virtue “ (since white working class girls who do not generally dress or behave as “modestly” as women from their culture. )

OpheliaWasntMad · 15/06/2025 20:39

Fetaface · 15/06/2025 20:38

What made them see brown girls as an easy target?

???

miraxxx · 15/06/2025 20:40

Hairgrip · 15/06/2025 19:56

There's an awful lot of Not My Nigel going on in here.

You can see why this particular kind of crime has been hidden away and not tackled for decades on end and why this particular inquiry is doomed to fail. The diversions and whattabouttery on this thread is itself ample evidence.
Here is a particular kind of sex crime with a particular profile of perpetrator and victim, patterns repeating over and over again over decades across many cities and towns in the UK. But it is all the "same kind" of misogyny and you are not to notice anything particular about this subset of crime - why the fuck not?

MiloMinderbinder925 · 15/06/2025 20:40

Barr77 · 15/06/2025 20:28

I agree that misogyny played a huge role — that's been well documented in the Casey Report and others. The way police and social workers dismissed these girls as making “lifestyle choices” was appalling and clearly rooted in deep institutional sexism.

But we also can’t ignore what the Jay Report (2014) and the Casey Review of Rotherham Council (2015) made explicitly clear: in cases like Rotherham, Rochdale, and Telford, a significant number of perpetrators were from Pakistani Muslim backgrounds, and cultural and ethnic dynamics absolutely shaped how the abuse played out — and how institutions failed to respond.

The Jay Report found that over 1,400 girls were abused in Rotherham alone, with many of the offenders being British Pakistani men. It also noted that authorities repeatedly failed to act, in part because they were afraid of being accused of racism. The Casey Review backed this up, describing a culture of cover-up and denial, where officials avoided addressing the ethnic aspect even when it was clearly relevant.

Authorities were reluctant to act or speak up because they feared being seen as racist. That fear directly contributed to the abuse continuing unchecked. So while misogyny was a core issue, political sensitivity around race and culture was not just “a factor” — it was central to the institutional paralysis.

This doesn’t mean painting whole communities with the same brush — most people in those communities were not involved and were horrified. But brushing over the ethnic and cultural aspect completely is also wrong. It’s possible — and necessary — to confront both truths: that this was about misogyny, and that cultural taboos, community silence, and institutional fear of racism accusations all played a role.

If we want real justice and real reform, we need to face the full picture, not just the parts that fit a preferred narrative.

I don't believe it was central, I believe misogyny was central and fear of racial tension was used as a convenient excuse. The fear of racial tension or being seen as racist has already been thoroughly explored and is well known. It was brought up in both reports and has had extensive coverage in the media.

I'm not exactly sure what people expect another investigation to find regarding this.

Fetaface · 15/06/2025 20:41

OpheliaWasntMad · 15/06/2025 20:39

???

You said that they chose certain girls based on their race as being an easy target so what judgements did they make on brown girls about them being an easy target?