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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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19
OpheliaWasntMad · 17/06/2025 23:01

MiloMinderbinder925 · 17/06/2025 21:45

I agree. The current investigation into CSA in Ireland has uncovered tens of thousands of cases going back decades. Covered up by everyone, absolutely despicable. Yet I haven't heard Catholics scream from the rooftops about how abhorrent it is. Not.a.peep.

Well I’m Catholic and I’m horrified. We do talk about it - everyone I know is completely sickened. If you speak to Irish Catholics you would know how very strongly they feel about these atrocities. The abusers were clergy and the abuse was covered up by clergy . Not ordinary Irish Catholics. Ordinary Irish Catholic families were victims.
It will take generations for the wounds to properly heal .

SquashedMallow · 17/06/2025 23:02

Everanewbie · 17/06/2025 22:20

I read something on twitter earlier. “Loudest recorded noise in human history- eruption of Krakatoa. Quietest sound in human history - the condemnation of Pakistani rape gangs from so called community leaders”

Also, "groups" of people tend to stick together out of loyalty for "their own". White straight people on the other hand, tend to flock to any fashionable minority group whilst degenerating other white people and gaslighting them into believing their 'phobic 'ist and goodness knows what else.whilst they patiently wait on their knees to be hit over the head for their "micro aggressions" . People need to get up off of their knees and stop being so wet and get some bloody balance back . Nothing extreme. Just balance! So "yes racism is despicable. We'll fight that together. I complimented your braids - nope. That's not a "micro aggression " and nope I'm not 'othering you'. Or "yes, I'll be right beside you if someone hurls abuse at you because you dress effeminately as a male. Nope - I will not use 'neopronouns' that's absurd. No that doesn't make me phobic'

Or "it's an emerging fact that there is a link with grooming gangs and Pakistani heritage. No that doesn't mean I am now against brown people. And I won't contort myself to prove it. It's just common sense and human decency "

MarianaMuse · 17/06/2025 23:03

MiloMinderbinder925 · 17/06/2025 21:45

I agree. The current investigation into CSA in Ireland has uncovered tens of thousands of cases going back decades. Covered up by everyone, absolutely despicable. Yet I haven't heard Catholics scream from the rooftops about how abhorrent it is. Not.a.peep.

There have been books written by survivors, films made, but I haven’t heard anyone from the Catholic Church apologising. I’m happy to stand corrected if they have.

OpheliaWasntMad · 17/06/2025 23:05

MarianaMuse · 17/06/2025 23:03

There have been books written by survivors, films made, but I haven’t heard anyone from the Catholic Church apologising. I’m happy to stand corrected if they have.

Yes . The church has apologised. Not sure that apologies help that much . It will take years and years for healing . It won’t happen just because there is an apology.

MarianaMuse · 17/06/2025 23:06

MiloMinderbinder925 · 17/06/2025 10:02

I don't know how many times it's been said, most recently in the Casey report, that we simply don't have the data to assert with confidence anything about ethnicity. A couple of police forces have collated some data on ethnicity and it does appear that men of Pakistani heritage are disproportionately involved but that's not definitive.

I was sceptical about this inquiry, because there have been about ten reports and investigations and nothing of note was implemented. However, they're saying that there could be prosecutions of those who covered this up. I'd be absolutely delighted if these institutions and individuals were held to account. I'm not holding my breath though.

I would like to see those who covered up the sexual abuse of children by people of any race or religion held to account.

SquashedMallow · 17/06/2025 23:06

MarianaMuse · 17/06/2025 23:03

There have been books written by survivors, films made, but I haven’t heard anyone from the Catholic Church apologising. I’m happy to stand corrected if they have.

No I'm in agreement with that poster. Catholic church absolutely should have come out in force to say "not in our name" Instead of twirling about with the latest pope acting like nothing has happened. I assume that poster thought (for some genuinely odd reason ) that I thought only Muslim or black/brown people should be owning and condemning their shit. I entirely agree with the Catholic church comment.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 17/06/2025 23:06

OpheliaWasntMad · 17/06/2025 23:01

Well I’m Catholic and I’m horrified. We do talk about it - everyone I know is completely sickened. If you speak to Irish Catholics you would know how very strongly they feel about these atrocities. The abusers were clergy and the abuse was covered up by clergy . Not ordinary Irish Catholics. Ordinary Irish Catholic families were victims.
It will take generations for the wounds to properly heal .

I haven't experienced that. I haven't heard anything at all.

OpheliaWasntMad · 17/06/2025 23:12

MiloMinderbinder925 · 17/06/2025 23:06

I haven't experienced that. I haven't heard anything at all.

Which bit haven’t you experienced? Im confused by your comment.
The bit where I said Irish people are sickened by the scandal?
The bit where I said ordinary Irish Catholics were victims of clergy abuse …

MiloMinderbinder925 · 17/06/2025 23:15

SquashedMallow · 17/06/2025 23:06

No I'm in agreement with that poster. Catholic church absolutely should have come out in force to say "not in our name" Instead of twirling about with the latest pope acting like nothing has happened. I assume that poster thought (for some genuinely odd reason ) that I thought only Muslim or black/brown people should be owning and condemning their shit. I entirely agree with the Catholic church comment.

It's not odd when you only mentioned people from certain minorities. We have had the Anglican church scandals, private school scandals, care home scandals, many cases of CSA happening on a large scale, often for decades and covered up by those institutions. We've had prolific sexual offenders such as Savile and Al Fayed, predating for decades and covered up.

I haven't heard Anglicans screaming from the rooftops apologising. In fact, wasn't its leader disgraced recently for having done nothing about a prolific sexual offender?

OpheliaWasntMad · 17/06/2025 23:17

SquashedMallow · 17/06/2025 23:06

No I'm in agreement with that poster. Catholic church absolutely should have come out in force to say "not in our name" Instead of twirling about with the latest pope acting like nothing has happened. I assume that poster thought (for some genuinely odd reason ) that I thought only Muslim or black/brown people should be owning and condemning their shit. I entirely agree with the Catholic church comment.

Of course the Catholic Church has horrific scandals to apologise for.
There absolutely HAVE been apologies but it takes more than an apology. …
There has been a catastrophic loss of trust and it will take generations for it to be restored.
Im a Catholic and I will absolutely own the shit that has happened in my community. Im not in denial.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 17/06/2025 23:18

OpheliaWasntMad · 17/06/2025 23:12

Which bit haven’t you experienced? Im confused by your comment.
The bit where I said Irish people are sickened by the scandal?
The bit where I said ordinary Irish Catholics were victims of clergy abuse …

I'm confused by your confusion. I haven't heard Catholics screaming from rooftops about the decades of sexual abuse and other forms of abuse eg the laundries. According to the poster, Catholics should be constantly apologising and speaking out about it.

SquashedMallow · 17/06/2025 23:23

OpheliaWasntMad · 17/06/2025 23:17

Of course the Catholic Church has horrific scandals to apologise for.
There absolutely HAVE been apologies but it takes more than an apology. …
There has been a catastrophic loss of trust and it will take generations for it to be restored.
Im a Catholic and I will absolutely own the shit that has happened in my community. Im not in denial.

I think you misunderstand me. You'd have to look at my quote history 🙈

OpheliaWasntMad · 17/06/2025 23:23

MiloMinderbinder925 · 17/06/2025 23:18

I'm confused by your confusion. I haven't heard Catholics screaming from rooftops about the decades of sexual abuse and other forms of abuse eg the laundries. According to the poster, Catholics should be constantly apologising and speaking out about it.

There have been numerous ways that Irish Catholics have tried to own and process the trauma of the discovery of terrible acts of child abuse.
Books, plays, news reports. Films Tv documentaries , etc etc
The Church has made statements/ apologies / commissioned lay people to conduct enquiries reviews/ reports . You wouldn’t know about it because it’s not reported in the media. That doesn’t mean it is not happening.

MarianaMuse · 17/06/2025 23:28

MiloMinderbinder925 · 17/06/2025 23:15

It's not odd when you only mentioned people from certain minorities. We have had the Anglican church scandals, private school scandals, care home scandals, many cases of CSA happening on a large scale, often for decades and covered up by those institutions. We've had prolific sexual offenders such as Savile and Al Fayed, predating for decades and covered up.

I haven't heard Anglicans screaming from the rooftops apologising. In fact, wasn't its leader disgraced recently for having done nothing about a prolific sexual offender?

The Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welby. In October 2024 the Makin Report was published, examining the Church of England’s response to the case of John Smyth, a barrister who had used the cover of boys’ camps and his involvement at Winchester College to access children and beat them savagely. It concluded that there had been a marked failure for decades to deal with Smyth.

John Smyth, a barrister who ran Christian summer camps in the 1970s and 1980s, committed physical, psychological and sexual abuse against more than 130 boys and young men.

Welby, who like Smyth, was immersed in the evangelical wing of the Church of England, was named as someone who had worked in the camps in his early twenties, although he has always maintained that he knew nothing of Smyth’s crimes at that time.

Then, in 2013, soon after his appointment as archbishop, Welby was informed of the Smyth case and told that complaints had been reported to the police. But no formal referral had actually been made. Instead, the Makin Report says, Welby and other senior church figures showed “a distinct lack of curiosity” and “a tendency towards minimisation of the matter”.

As the report points out, if Smyth had been reported to the police at that time — and by then he was in South Africa, where he also abused children — then there could have been a full investigation, uncovering his crimes, and later victims would have been saved. Smyth died in 2018 and was never brought to justice.

The Archbishop reluctantly resigned. His position was untenable.

SquashedMallow · 17/06/2025 23:30

MiloMinderbinder925 · 17/06/2025 23:15

It's not odd when you only mentioned people from certain minorities. We have had the Anglican church scandals, private school scandals, care home scandals, many cases of CSA happening on a large scale, often for decades and covered up by those institutions. We've had prolific sexual offenders such as Savile and Al Fayed, predating for decades and covered up.

I haven't heard Anglicans screaming from the rooftops apologising. In fact, wasn't its leader disgraced recently for having done nothing about a prolific sexual offender?

But I'm not disagreeing with you. I agree.

But similarly, it's said there's a lot of say for example, islamaphobia around in the UK, but there's radio silence when say a terrorist attack unfolds by a 'muslim' perpetrator (which is most of the UKs terrorist attacks) where Muslims are a minority religion here, I would expect the communities to be making it very clear indeed that it's 'not in our name' and making very vocal and public displays of wanting cohesion.

That surely you can see, is also true ?

MarianaMuse · 17/06/2025 23:31

OpheliaWasntMad · 17/06/2025 23:23

There have been numerous ways that Irish Catholics have tried to own and process the trauma of the discovery of terrible acts of child abuse.
Books, plays, news reports. Films Tv documentaries , etc etc
The Church has made statements/ apologies / commissioned lay people to conduct enquiries reviews/ reports . You wouldn’t know about it because it’s not reported in the media. That doesn’t mean it is not happening.

Likewise, Muslim leaders have made apologies and condemned the abuse but because it’s not reported in the media, you wouldn’t know about it. In any case, as PPs have said, apologies are not going to heal decades of harm.

OpheliaWasntMad · 17/06/2025 23:32

SquashedMallow · 17/06/2025 23:23

I think you misunderstand me. You'd have to look at my quote history 🙈

I do agree that all communities have to face the truth about shameful behaviour in their community. Covering things up for the sake of “community cohesion “ will never work long term.
The Pakistani community/ the Catholic or Anglican Church/ the police … etc
Cover ups make things worse.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 17/06/2025 23:34

OpheliaWasntMad · 17/06/2025 23:23

There have been numerous ways that Irish Catholics have tried to own and process the trauma of the discovery of terrible acts of child abuse.
Books, plays, news reports. Films Tv documentaries , etc etc
The Church has made statements/ apologies / commissioned lay people to conduct enquiries reviews/ reports . You wouldn’t know about it because it’s not reported in the media. That doesn’t mean it is not happening.

But not screaming from rooftops. The poster thinks every single Catholic should take responsibility and scream from rooftops about it.

MarianaMuse · 17/06/2025 23:36

SquashedMallow · 17/06/2025 23:30

But I'm not disagreeing with you. I agree.

But similarly, it's said there's a lot of say for example, islamaphobia around in the UK, but there's radio silence when say a terrorist attack unfolds by a 'muslim' perpetrator (which is most of the UKs terrorist attacks) where Muslims are a minority religion here, I would expect the communities to be making it very clear indeed that it's 'not in our name' and making very vocal and public displays of wanting cohesion.

That surely you can see, is also true ?

I’d like to see more rabbis being vocal about the genocide in Gaza and some are. But here we are. I’d like to see more religious leaders in general being vocal about physical, emotional, and sexual abuse being covered up by their own communities.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 17/06/2025 23:38

SquashedMallow · 17/06/2025 23:30

But I'm not disagreeing with you. I agree.

But similarly, it's said there's a lot of say for example, islamaphobia around in the UK, but there's radio silence when say a terrorist attack unfolds by a 'muslim' perpetrator (which is most of the UKs terrorist attacks) where Muslims are a minority religion here, I would expect the communities to be making it very clear indeed that it's 'not in our name' and making very vocal and public displays of wanting cohesion.

That surely you can see, is also true ?

Of course I don't agree. Why should every single person of a particular religion apologise and take responsibility for a fundamentalist? It should be pretty obvious that not all people belonging to a particular religion are homogeneous.

MarianaMuse · 17/06/2025 23:40

I notice that when sexual abuse is covered up by police, social workers, councillors and clergy/imams it’s generally women who bring it out into the open. Just an observation.

Dkdaacscfa · 17/06/2025 23:41

saraclara · 14/06/2025 23:15

They're not

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/elon-musk-npcc-keir-starmer-nigel-farage-pakistani-b2677586.html

The vast majority of grooming gang offences are carried out by white men, the National Police Chiefs’ Council (NPCC) has said.
New figures from the police database show that, where ethnicity data was available, 85% of “group-based” child abusers were white in the first three quarters of 2024.

But if course the media tends to focus on the Pakistani gangs, because divisive news reporting gets more readers.

What I wonder about is per capita

MarianaMuse · 17/06/2025 23:42

MiloMinderbinder925 · 17/06/2025 23:38

Of course I don't agree. Why should every single person of a particular religion apologise and take responsibility for a fundamentalist? It should be pretty obvious that not all people belonging to a particular religion are homogeneous.

I agree - I’m C of E and I don’t see why I should apologise for the behaviour of paedophiles in the C of E.

SquashedMallow · 17/06/2025 23:43

MarianaMuse · 17/06/2025 23:31

Likewise, Muslim leaders have made apologies and condemned the abuse but because it’s not reported in the media, you wouldn’t know about it. In any case, as PPs have said, apologies are not going to heal decades of harm.

I agree. But its going to take some pretty uncomfortable truths being unearthed and acknowledged that we're going to have to unveil and sit with and stop the current brainwashed narrative of deflecting with "can't say that. You're racist ".

Many communities do NOT integrate. They live in communities of "their own" and tend to want this (because we allow it in the UK otherwise that old 'ist word comes out ) the blackmumsnetters board and Muslim Mumsnetters (although admittedly, it has a far less hostile vibe ) South Asian Mumsnetters too , are there for the viewing. It's very clear, I'm sorry to say, particularly on the black Mumsnetters board just how obvious it is that certain groups do NOT want to mix, have hostile views and only want to mix with "their own" and there's no pretzling to openly say that either.

We need to start openly discussing these issues and start practicing equality and encouraging cohesion. And I think it starts by having a less tolerant approach to people trying to segregate themselves.

OpheliaWasntMad · 17/06/2025 23:44

MarianaMuse · 17/06/2025 23:40

I notice that when sexual abuse is covered up by police, social workers, councillors and clergy/imams it’s generally women who bring it out into the open. Just an observation.

Yes - Maggie Oliver, Ann Cryer, Sarah Champion etc