DD has said she will never view me as a mum

[Strangersev]

Hi all, this could be long and I want to say straight away I know I messed up, I just don’t know how to reply, I’m not looking to minimise my actions.

So background, my ex husband and I both had jobs which involved moving relatively frequently, we had one child, and over the 18 years of her childhood she lived in 5 countries (Canada, Italy, Singapore, Switzerland, and France). I am British, her dad is Italian.

For the first 10 years of her life I’d say we were a very happy family, we lived in Italy for 7 years which provided a real period of stability. We then moved to Singapore, this was more for my sake than my ex husbands but much like Canada in the early years he was willing to make a compromise for my career. However here is where cracks started to form. We lost our way with parenting, would have loud and dramatic fights and often our poor little DD would be witness. I regret this period deeply and 2 years later we moved to Switzerland, this was meant to be a happy middle ground, good career opportunities for us both and DD hadn’t really enjoyed life in Singapore so we thought this may be more familiar.

My ex husband immediately started having an affair, I knew but for 2 years just allowed it to happen. I lied to our DD about him working late when I knew he was with her, I didn’t question or press him on where he was, however 2 years in I came home to them in our bed. This was my breaking point, I spiralled, had a mental breakdown and went into a deep depression. I decided for 6 months I’d move back to my parents home in the uk, my husband and I agreed we would divorce. We spoke to DD and she insisted she wasn’t moving again, she liked Geneva, she was happy at school. I accepted that 6 months apart from her would be a sacrifice worth making. The 6 months passed and I was offered a dream role in Paris. My mental health wasn’t great still, I felt selfishly like I needed to make a decision that was best for me, so I took the job. I asked DD to move with me, she refused. Geneva to Paris was a very manageable distance though, I spent all the holidays with her and we had a lovely time. I do realise now I was saying horrible things about her dad to her during this time and that was immature and cruel of me.

Once DD finished that phase of schooling at 16, her dad got offered a job in Luxembourg which he decided he was going to take. DD was offered Paris or Luxembourg for her diploma years and settled on Paris. I think upon reflection this was very little to do with me and more that for a 16 year old girl Paris is perhaps the more inspirational place to live. I thought her living with me again would be wonderful but the reality was she took 7 subjects for her diploma instead of 6 (wanted to take all her languages) and the time taken up by other elements of the IB diploma meant she was never really home, distance grew between us massively in this time. I started a new relationship which at the time I didn’t feel guilty for as she was really never home in the week and on weekends she’s often want to go to her dads.

DD then took a gap year, and after that went to university in the UK. She is now graduating this summer.

I met up with her for lunch yesterday. She told me about the masters she will be doing, how excited she is to move back to Italy. I realised that in the 3 years she has been living in my home country I’ve only seen her 6 times. She always spends Christmas with her dad, spent summers travelling so it felt difficult to see her. I asked her jokingly if she felt more “British” after her 3 years and she said not at all. She is a third culture kid but If asked to pick she would always say she is Italian. I was hurt by this initially and told her this. She then said “I don’t even really view you as a mum”. This broke my heart I started to cry and she said she was best going.

She messaged me this morning explaining that she can’t view me as a mum as when she was 14-16 I messed with her head. I told her that her dad was evil and cruel yet I left her with him alone. She listed all the ways her dad has been a more selfless parent and more supportive parent.

I am now sad heartbroken and stunned, I don’t really know how to reply? Of course I can and will apologise and I don’t plan to defend my version of events but I feel like I should at least explain?

AIBU to feel like I should explain my side of the story to her? Or have I been ridiculously selfish and this is a result of my own actions?

Any advice much appreciated/

Neither of you have ever put her first. Everything was about what you wanted.

Her dad is the only constant parent in her life.

(Why did you leave when you caught your husband in bed with his mistress.)

Even when she was living with you in Paris, you weren’t available to her as you had found someone else.

How long after her moving in did it take before you took a bf
If you wanted to repair the damage then being there for her and making yourself available was going to take time
It sounds like you gave it a couple of months and then said sod it and started a new relationship

People take time to get comfortable and bring the barriers down.

If you are honest with yourself did you not see the consequences of leaving your child with a man you called evil and cruel then moving to a different country. If Paris to Geneva was a doable distance why didn’t you see her every weekend, why only holidays.

I don’t think these replies are harsh at all. I’m surprised the OP hasn’t been given a real roasting.

Op, apologise for the way you handled things. Explain that your mental health was shot and you were justifiably angry at her dad for the affair, but that those aren’t good enough reasons for the way you handled things and looking back you’d do things very differently as you appreciate the harm it’s done to her, and you understand why she feels like she does. That you didn’t like hearing what she’s just said but it’s made you reflect and you can completely see why she’s said the things she has. You are truly sorry and know that it will be difficult but you’d like to try to build a different relationship going forward with the help of some joint counselling perhaps.

You’ve got to accept and tell her, that this is all on you. And that she’s done incredibly well surviving the way she has, given the terrible damage you’ve caused her.

The thing is though his affair
affected the marriage not his parenting. And the bit that did the OP covered for him.

telling your side is just going to be more excuses which she doesn’t need.

Acceptance of what she says apologise and see if you can rebuild a relationship at her pace

This. Its so obvious that for both of you career came first, never her.

Im not surprised she feels the way she does, the pair of you were continually ripping her away from wherever she called home so you could move on to the next job you wanted.

Why did she have to choose Paris or Luxembourg at 16. Why could she not have stayed in Geneva, why could her needs not have come first for once?! She no doubt left friends behind.

And why at the point of marital breakdown could you not have stayed in Geneva too? You didn't have to move to another country!! It's not a normal choice as a parent to move to literally another country away from your daughter. That decision was based on your needs and yourself and what you wanted, not what would be best for your child.

I think you're being very hard on yourself, and all the perfect parents here aren't going to be helping. Your xh behaved like a cunt but unsurprisingly, given our culture, she's holding her father to a less high standard than her mother. The fact that he was a physical fixture in her life at a time when you were having a breakdown because of how he treated you does not make him a good parent, and personally, though I agree with the don't explain/excuse/minimise advice, I think it would be better for her if she can eventually see this. I think you need to hold on to the fact that you're not actually estranged and work to keep it that way, rebuilding trust and your relationship gradually. This must be a very painful moment, but you can both move beyond it in time. Take it slowly. Sometimes the best you can do will just be not to make matters worse.

The only thing you can do now is to decide what kind of relationship you want with her.
if you want to be friend with her, then the only thing you can do is apologise and listen to her.

she has a right to let you know how she felt and how she had to protect herself. Her dad has been a constant figure in her life you need to accept that.
you dont need to explain your side of the story. You need to GROW UP and BE HER MUM. She said her dad was selfless why dint you do that. And see how she feels.

stop actibg as the victim. You were the parent, you made decisions good and bad - we all do - accept them and FORGIVE YOURSELF. Now move on and be there FOR HER.

She is the ONLY victim here of her 2 parents decisions. Yet she managed to become a rather balanced lady with incredible achievements and the promise of a fantastic future life.
through none of your help by the sound of it so celebrate her.

it isnt about you

Apologies for being arch @Strangersev but I am honnest.

Thank you all. I do appreciate that in her eyes I did abandon her and badmouthing her my ex husband was a massive and unjustifiable mistake.

Interesting some here view the moving a lot as a failing. DD always says she is grateful for having experience multiple cultures as a child. She went to international schools so wasn’t the only child who moved from country to country. She always speaks fondly of the moves and is now fluent in 3 languages to a native and academic level and a 4th conversationally. She wants to work in book publishing and eventually book translation so she views the opportunities to not just learn these languages, but live them, appreciate the nuances and weight of the words as a massive pro in her life.

I also tend to think that her still choosing to make moves as an adult (doing her undergrad in a country she’d never lived in and now moving again for her masters) suggests she is actually fond of the childhood we gave her.

She sounds brilliant.

honestly, you don't sound like you've been a good mother. What sort of mother leaves their child for six months? Or chooses to live in a different country to their child? It's absolutely absurd. I cannot imagine a world where I would prioritise my career or where I lived over my children (and I'm very invested in my career, just nothing trumps my kids).

sounds like she's done very well to survive her messed up early years and emerge with a sound head on her shoulders.

She's not a neutral adult though.

And it's not about apportioning blame. The daughter isn't interested in that.

I think it's probably hard for a lot of posters to understand the the problem, whch is why there are a lot of suggestions that the OP should explain about the affair etc. If they had a good, strong relationship, then it might be appropriate to explain a short term blip or lapse in judgement but they don't - the whole relationship is missing.

What she's saying is the OP doesn't feel like a mum to her because the OP didn't ever invest in being her mum. The reasons for that are irrelevant to the daughter. It's not going to change the relationship they are lacking which is what needs building. It is unlikely they will ever have what most people think of as a mother/daughter relationship because the window for that has passed. It doesn't mean they can't build a different sort of relationship going forwards.

The OP has had some good advice on how to do that.

You’re making it worse

None of those positives outweigh the emotional damage, though.

You can’t change the past, but you can try and be better for the future. As others have already said, accept responsibility for your failings as her mother, without excuses, but impress upon her that you do want a relationship with her in the future. This will take work and some sacrifices, so only enter into this if you really intend to put the effort in.

At this stage all you can hope for is what she’s prepared to offer, she needs to see that you are genuinely remorseful and that you want to change. It isn’t going to be easy, and you may never have the relationship you want, but you don’t really have any other option.

I don't think it would be helpful to explain your side of the story to her at this stage, that just makes it seem like you don't think you did anything wrong.

The truth is you have put yourself and your career before your daughter for her entire life and as an adult she is able to see that.

I would offer her an apology if it is genuine and perhaps offer to talk about things if she wants to but that's it.

Tbh OP it suggests she just doesn't know any other life and has no real place she calls home.

I think that it can be difficult not to really come from anywhere, despite also giving advantages. Left to myself, I’d move countries every few years, but it was clear that this didn’t suit DS, after we’d moved a couple of times when he was younger, so we’ve decided to stay where we are now (in DH’s and my home country) until he leaves school. He’ll have fewer languages but more of a sense of identity with a particular place and culture.

@Strangersev please ask Mumsnet to take this thread down, or delete your account in Settings. The perfect parents are out in force and it is bad for your mental health to read the nasty replies.

No I appreciate that. What I’m saying is DD herself always says she is grateful for the opportunities to move and wouldn’t have wanted that to be any different. She explains she didn’t want to leave Geneva at 14 as she was in the middle of a schooling stage and found those moves difficult but was glad to move to Paris at 16.

Wow! She isn’t your friend or your therapist.

It is really basic stuff keeping her out of the divorce and you couldn’t.
It is really basic stuff making sure that she is OK and that the parent child bond is in place and you didn’t.

I think you are really downplaying what it has been like for her, and I think you have demonstrated a low commitment to both her and your relationship with her.

Of course the fact she is prepared to say it must feel devastating and brutal. (And her third culture upbringing will have played a part) but you are going to have to start from ground zero to rebuild a new relationship with her.
I really think that you need professional help with this one.

I do appreciate that in her eyes I did abandon her

In her eyes? You are making this worse.

She doesn’t even see you as her mum, and you still think she had a good childhood.

At uni she’ll have met children with parents who see there every night, took them to clubs, made their tea, listened as they spoke, who hid their own feelings from their children.
Whilst your husband had an affair and hurt you, she clearly views him as a good dad.

As well as apologising and listening to her, I would also make some ground rules with her
e.g. You will stop speaking negatively about her Dad, you will start to consider how your actions have hurt her, you will start to put her before yourself etc

Her entire childhood sounds like a massive clusterfuck of insecurity and loss - barely settling, dragged from Country to Country chasing Mum or Dad's latest exciting job opportunity.

I can't imagine she'll want much to do with either of you as she matures as the realisation that neither of her parents ever really put her first truly sinks in.

Loving parents don't swan off to live in a different Country op. Ever. Shame on you and good on your dd for not sugar coating her feelings.

No, absolutely do not try to explain your side of the story. It’s not relevant to her experience of her childhood.

I have a similar story that means I never really felt that my mother was my mum. Many of the reasons for this are not entirely her fault and I have a lot of empathy for her, but it doesn’t change my experience of my own childhood - never feeling a priority, feeling emotionally unsafe, feeling like an after thought.

You shouldn’t have told her you were hurt by her saying she felt more Italian, that was pointless and manipulative of you. You sound like you’re aware of the mistakes you’ve made over the years, but trying to justify them now will definitely not help your relationship with her. Trying to make her feel sorry for you will only push her further away.

In your position I’d offer sincerely to pay for any therapy she feels she needs to process her unusual childhood and relationship with you. I’m in my 40s now and still paying through the nose for therapy to try and unravel my childhood and the impact it’s had on me as an adult.

She may well be grateful, but that doesn't make up for everything else, and you're acting as though it does.

Trauma...can you forgive the person who hurt you?

Was there causality?

Yes, your ex husband was unfaithful and sent you mental and bitter

Are they repentant?

Yes, you now acknowledge the pain you caused. You are genuinely sorry.

Then, that combination is best prospect for forgiveness one day, and it's up to DD to decide if she offers you mercy. She may not.

Until then, I would be a good parent, be there for her, not just financially, because they will take and take and it won't bring the mercy any closer, and don't beg.

Be dignified. Focus on your own life. Acceptance is important. Accept that the relationship you have with your DD is what it is. You can't change the past. You can only live in the present reality.