DD has said she will never view me as a mum

[Strangersev]

Hi all, this could be long and I want to say straight away I know I messed up, I just don’t know how to reply, I’m not looking to minimise my actions.

So background, my ex husband and I both had jobs which involved moving relatively frequently, we had one child, and over the 18 years of her childhood she lived in 5 countries (Canada, Italy, Singapore, Switzerland, and France). I am British, her dad is Italian.

For the first 10 years of her life I’d say we were a very happy family, we lived in Italy for 7 years which provided a real period of stability. We then moved to Singapore, this was more for my sake than my ex husbands but much like Canada in the early years he was willing to make a compromise for my career. However here is where cracks started to form. We lost our way with parenting, would have loud and dramatic fights and often our poor little DD would be witness. I regret this period deeply and 2 years later we moved to Switzerland, this was meant to be a happy middle ground, good career opportunities for us both and DD hadn’t really enjoyed life in Singapore so we thought this may be more familiar.

My ex husband immediately started having an affair, I knew but for 2 years just allowed it to happen. I lied to our DD about him working late when I knew he was with her, I didn’t question or press him on where he was, however 2 years in I came home to them in our bed. This was my breaking point, I spiralled, had a mental breakdown and went into a deep depression. I decided for 6 months I’d move back to my parents home in the uk, my husband and I agreed we would divorce. We spoke to DD and she insisted she wasn’t moving again, she liked Geneva, she was happy at school. I accepted that 6 months apart from her would be a sacrifice worth making. The 6 months passed and I was offered a dream role in Paris. My mental health wasn’t great still, I felt selfishly like I needed to make a decision that was best for me, so I took the job. I asked DD to move with me, she refused. Geneva to Paris was a very manageable distance though, I spent all the holidays with her and we had a lovely time. I do realise now I was saying horrible things about her dad to her during this time and that was immature and cruel of me.

Once DD finished that phase of schooling at 16, her dad got offered a job in Luxembourg which he decided he was going to take. DD was offered Paris or Luxembourg for her diploma years and settled on Paris. I think upon reflection this was very little to do with me and more that for a 16 year old girl Paris is perhaps the more inspirational place to live. I thought her living with me again would be wonderful but the reality was she took 7 subjects for her diploma instead of 6 (wanted to take all her languages) and the time taken up by other elements of the IB diploma meant she was never really home, distance grew between us massively in this time. I started a new relationship which at the time I didn’t feel guilty for as she was really never home in the week and on weekends she’s often want to go to her dads.

DD then took a gap year, and after that went to university in the UK. She is now graduating this summer.

I met up with her for lunch yesterday. She told me about the masters she will be doing, how excited she is to move back to Italy. I realised that in the 3 years she has been living in my home country I’ve only seen her 6 times. She always spends Christmas with her dad, spent summers travelling so it felt difficult to see her. I asked her jokingly if she felt more “British” after her 3 years and she said not at all. She is a third culture kid but If asked to pick she would always say she is Italian. I was hurt by this initially and told her this. She then said “I don’t even really view you as a mum”. This broke my heart I started to cry and she said she was best going.

She messaged me this morning explaining that she can’t view me as a mum as when she was 14-16 I messed with her head. I told her that her dad was evil and cruel yet I left her with him alone. She listed all the ways her dad has been a more selfless parent and more supportive parent.

I am now sad heartbroken and stunned, I don’t really know how to reply? Of course I can and will apologise and I don’t plan to defend my version of events but I feel like I should at least explain?

AIBU to feel like I should explain my side of the story to her? Or have I been ridiculously selfish and this is a result of my own actions?

Any advice much appreciated/

Why are you surprised/saddened that she doesn't feel British? Surely you wouldn't expect her to, given she did not grow up in the UK? I think expressing sadness at that probably annoyed her- it wasn't her that decided to move around so much, I don't think you have a right to guilt trip her about not feeling part of your culture, when you chose to live elsewhere! (And perhaps it wasn't your intention to guilt trip her- but this is how it may have come across to her).

Yeah, I think this may have been the final straw for the OP's daughter. The OP moved her all over the place and then "hurt" at learning she didn't feel British. TBH, it feels a bit as though the OP sees her daughter as a possession - a doll she can pick up when she feels like it, then put back down when she gets bored.

tbh she might think her dad was a more supportive parent but given (from your account) he hardly sounds as though he's covered himself in glory (equally responsible for the shouting age 10-12, solely responsible for cheating 12-14, then cba to stay in one place for 2 years for her to finish school aged 16 despite already having lived in 4 countries at that point), I can't say whether she's holding you to a higher standard or she's just learned to have very low expectations of her parents.

Really it doesn't sound like either of you have ever put her first in your lives - prioritising jobs, new partners, your mental health (what about her mental health?!) etc over what would be best for her. Honestly she probably would have been better off at boarding school from the time you left italy, at least then she would have had some continuity and wouldn't have been in the middle of angry adults airing their relationship drama.

Saying you've only seen her 6 times in the last 3 years is pathetic. Student holidays are so long, I doubt she spent the whole summer travelling. You could have just gone to see her for a weekend or something, or travelled to her dad's city to have at least seen her over christmas.

Sounds like she's brought herself up (well), despite her parents, not with their help.

You messed up

i agree with others… no excuses… must have been super difficult fir her moving constantly… parents fighting… divorcing… then sort of being abandoned…

age us being a bit critical as I think you were expressing an opinion which hurt her.

That's OK then!

You should only apologise profoundly if you really mean it and I don’t think you will.

wow people are mean here. OP I think it’s actually a good thing she’s being open with you about how you’ve hurt her, it gives you an opportunity to explain and apologise and try and make it up to her.

It’s easy to spot the absences of being a parent, or beat ourselves up about what we could have done better. Every mum has a huge number of things to beat themselves up with.

the first thing that stands out to me is her ability to talk to you. I could no more say this to my mum than sprout wings.

she feels she can be honest with you which

1. Says a lot. 2. Means she sees a relationship with you that’s worth being honest.

its clear from what she has said that she doesn’t want to upset you, but would rather have a relationship with you that’s based on honesty. That means a lot.

shes an independent woman, who’s been given opportunities plenty of women would dream of. She’s bright, articulate and communicative. You’re winning.

take it on the chin, use it to build a proper relationship with her - ask her what she’d like to do with you, then do it.

Everything else aside, her words reflect the reality. A mother is someone there, mostly, listening and nurturing, mostly, taking an interest, mostly. We could all be exhausted, struggling with mental health, divorce, work that takes us away. But mostly, despite everything, we fill the motherhood cup enough on good days that on bad days or weeks, our children know they are connected with and loved. It doesn't sound like your daughter has ever felt able to turn to you for comfort, connection, guidance or help.

I was that super independent capable.girl. My mother was an emotional mess throughout my childhood, largely due to my dad's affairs I now know. I have some sympathy for her. But she didn't ever mother me and we simply don't have a relationship now as through necessity I sought that care and attention from others.

I don't know if it helps to imagine the bigger picture, but she is now more stable and is able to enjoy being a granny to my kids.

I think you’ve been a terrible parent and I don’t blame her for wanting to stay away from you and also her not viewing you as a Mum. 6 times in 3 years is appalling.

You managed to defend yourself without also answering the direct question you quoted from PP. You are the problem.
Give your daughter a heartfelt apology without “but me, myself and I” or leave the poor girl alone.

I’ll also add that the reason she’s disassociated from you and doesn’t feel a maternal attachment is a defence mechanism. You tried to kill yourself three times. Children instinctively rely on their parents as their primary source of love and protection. She will probably feel that she wasn’t enough for you to want to live to give her that love and protection so that has damaged the attachment between you both. She will likely feel that you didn’t want to stick around for her. I’m not blaming you, I’m attempting to explain where your relationship has fundamentally gone wrong. You need to start again from scratch with low expectations of her. As the parent, it is your responsibility to fix the relationship, not hers and it is not her responsibility to filter her words for fear of hurting you when you have never acted out of your primary responsibility as a parent- which is to protect her. Her father had equal responsibility to her, but this isn’t about her relationship with him, it’s about you and her.

Jesus Christ, OP.

You broke her trust and shattered the foundations. This is the outcome. The fact that you seem surprised speaks volumes.

Tbh I think you have got off pretty lightly on here, considering.

I'm sorry but it's obvious to me that your focus was on you, when it should have been on DD and you are now seeing the effects it has had on DD.
She sounds a bright focussed independent young woman
she has achieved well, where many wouldn't duringsuch an unsettled childhood

No doubt the suicide attempts plus the badmouthing of her Dad are the catalysts behind her telling you that she doesn’t see you as a mum. There is obviously a lot of heartbreak there from her childhood. All you can do is apologise for your part in this but forgive yourself as your ex doesn’t come out brilliantly from this either. Does she know about his cheating?

Hopefully in time you can rebuild a relationship with her. Paris is not miles apart from Italy so make an effort to visit and move forward. I hope your mental health is better now.

@Strangersev I think the saddest and most telling part is that it is on reflection you have seen her 6 times in 3 years and you didn’t know she had a partner.

That is hardly anything I have seen my best friend around the same amount of times and I feel guilty that we haven’t been able to see her more.

and it seems that it hasn’t crossed your mind that you hadn’t seen her that much

She can’t really say anything other than that she was OK with the country moves, because she has never known anything else and it has made her who she is today, as has your parenting, or lack thereof. It does seem that you prioritised your career and expected your dd to fit around that, and you have clearly taken more of a distant interest in her life than an actual active part in it for many years. Most significantly, at a time in her life that she needed stability, you fell apart, then patched yourself together by yet again prioritising your career and badmouthing her father, who besides her school was the only stability and predictability she had left. You did not at any point appear to realise that your daughter might also have needed support and patching up. It’s not surprising she is very self-possessed and emotionally reserved - she had to internalise her feelings, because you were too busy externalising yours for her to be able to do anything else with her own.

None of this means she doesn’t love you, but I doubt you will ever be someone she associates with safety, reliability, nurturing or stability. I wouldn’t try to explain - it’s obvious she already knows what the explanation is, as she lived through it all, too. Better just to apologise for the harm you recognise you caused and to let her know you love her dearly and would like to be there for her in the future.

Positive or not, OP, it is really hard to be a third culture kid. It leaves you with a sense of belonging nowhere. It disconnects you from your roots and your extended family, who you may not even know. If the nuclear family is then suffering a disconnect, like yours was, there isn't even that to hold onto. I'd say just acknowledge that your DD has had a hard time, you weren't there for her in the years she most needed a mother to guide her, and apologise for that. She might be too young to be able to appreciate your own journey, but might be more interested when she is older. Acknowledge the short-comings and work on building a stronger relationship from this point.

Apologise once. Really mean it.

Love this! Excellent advice

I personally think you went wrong when you essentially chose to put yourself first above your daughter by taking the job in Paris, in her eyes you effectively walked out on many parental responsibilities. parents have to make sacrifices

She knows you had a mental health crisis caused by her dad but still choses his side of things. She should be more empathetic to what you've been through surely

I also remember the thread where the mum was upset that her 22-year-old DD, who loved Italy and thought of herself as Italian, had chosen to pronounce her name the Italian way rather than the English way. The mum was insisting that she had given her DD an English name and was cross that her DD considered it an Italian one. At the time I thought the mum was entirely in the wrong: it's up to the DD how she chooses to pronounce her own name! A lot of kids grow up and decide to change their names entirely.

If that OP was also you, OP, then you do need to change the way you perceive your daughter. She is her own person, not an extension of you. Just because you want her to have a positive view of the UK doesn't mean she has to have a positive view. She's allowed to disagree with you. I'm sympathetic to everything you have suffered in the past, but if you want a healthy relationship with your DD, you need to accept her on her own terms and not try to make her conform to your expectations. This is true of all parents and their adult children by the way!

Also, you're keen to insist that growing up in multiple countries was a positive experience for her. It may well have been, but the real issue here seems not to be that she grew up in multiple countries, but that she grew up spending long stretches of time without her mum.

No he had an affair whilst wrong and relationship ending the resulting breakdown I suspect was not just that - it certainly shouldn’t be and the relationship seemed unstable as well which the DD would have seen.

Either way he had an affair on the OP not his DD he continued to be her father and be there for her and support her and still does.

there is no understanding of her DDs needs or awareness of what her childhood was like - she clearly felt unsupported by her mother

I don't know. Parents divorcing is particularly hard for teenagers and you weren't the instigator. Moreover none of us are perfect parents but the important thing now is that she seems to be doing well for herself.

I think the fact she could tell you about it is very positive.
I've tried this with my Mum and it's always backfired.
I would absolutely build on the relationship from here and prioritise this relationship as much as you can.
Do not defend yourself, it's already happened and it's in the past. Focus on the future.

I kind of agree with this. You screwed up but so did you ex. In fact he was worse to have an affair and then brought the other woman in your bed which led to your break down. Perhaps you should have separated from him when you learnt of affair rather than ignoring for 2-3 years. But you can’t change that now and you had reasons.
Your Dd is old enough to understand you had a mental breakdown and couldn’t live in Geneva ( I am assuming that’s the case).
Your ex is not a selfless parent or else he would not be bring his affair woman to his home with you and Dd. Difference is he didn’t say things behind your back to her but then he had nothing to say. You should have never discussed your issues with ex with dd. You can apologise for that. But relationships very long to build and you can’t change that you missed that opportunity. You can briefly tell her your reasons for acting selfishly in an email.
Tell her you regret your decision and would like a relationship but would respect if she wants a space.