DD has said she will never view me as a mum

[Strangersev]

Hi all, this could be long and I want to say straight away I know I messed up, I just don’t know how to reply, I’m not looking to minimise my actions.

So background, my ex husband and I both had jobs which involved moving relatively frequently, we had one child, and over the 18 years of her childhood she lived in 5 countries (Canada, Italy, Singapore, Switzerland, and France). I am British, her dad is Italian.

For the first 10 years of her life I’d say we were a very happy family, we lived in Italy for 7 years which provided a real period of stability. We then moved to Singapore, this was more for my sake than my ex husbands but much like Canada in the early years he was willing to make a compromise for my career. However here is where cracks started to form. We lost our way with parenting, would have loud and dramatic fights and often our poor little DD would be witness. I regret this period deeply and 2 years later we moved to Switzerland, this was meant to be a happy middle ground, good career opportunities for us both and DD hadn’t really enjoyed life in Singapore so we thought this may be more familiar.

My ex husband immediately started having an affair, I knew but for 2 years just allowed it to happen. I lied to our DD about him working late when I knew he was with her, I didn’t question or press him on where he was, however 2 years in I came home to them in our bed. This was my breaking point, I spiralled, had a mental breakdown and went into a deep depression. I decided for 6 months I’d move back to my parents home in the uk, my husband and I agreed we would divorce. We spoke to DD and she insisted she wasn’t moving again, she liked Geneva, she was happy at school. I accepted that 6 months apart from her would be a sacrifice worth making. The 6 months passed and I was offered a dream role in Paris. My mental health wasn’t great still, I felt selfishly like I needed to make a decision that was best for me, so I took the job. I asked DD to move with me, she refused. Geneva to Paris was a very manageable distance though, I spent all the holidays with her and we had a lovely time. I do realise now I was saying horrible things about her dad to her during this time and that was immature and cruel of me.

Once DD finished that phase of schooling at 16, her dad got offered a job in Luxembourg which he decided he was going to take. DD was offered Paris or Luxembourg for her diploma years and settled on Paris. I think upon reflection this was very little to do with me and more that for a 16 year old girl Paris is perhaps the more inspirational place to live. I thought her living with me again would be wonderful but the reality was she took 7 subjects for her diploma instead of 6 (wanted to take all her languages) and the time taken up by other elements of the IB diploma meant she was never really home, distance grew between us massively in this time. I started a new relationship which at the time I didn’t feel guilty for as she was really never home in the week and on weekends she’s often want to go to her dads.

DD then took a gap year, and after that went to university in the UK. She is now graduating this summer.

I met up with her for lunch yesterday. She told me about the masters she will be doing, how excited she is to move back to Italy. I realised that in the 3 years she has been living in my home country I’ve only seen her 6 times. She always spends Christmas with her dad, spent summers travelling so it felt difficult to see her. I asked her jokingly if she felt more “British” after her 3 years and she said not at all. She is a third culture kid but If asked to pick she would always say she is Italian. I was hurt by this initially and told her this. She then said “I don’t even really view you as a mum”. This broke my heart I started to cry and she said she was best going.

She messaged me this morning explaining that she can’t view me as a mum as when she was 14-16 I messed with her head. I told her that her dad was evil and cruel yet I left her with him alone. She listed all the ways her dad has been a more selfless parent and more supportive parent.

I am now sad heartbroken and stunned, I don’t really know how to reply? Of course I can and will apologise and I don’t plan to defend my version of events but I feel like I should at least explain?

AIBU to feel like I should explain my side of the story to her? Or have I been ridiculously selfish and this is a result of my own actions?

Any advice much appreciated/

My husband had a peripatetic childhood and indeed feels in some ways he benefited from that, but as a result he has always struggled with meaningful friendships, as he always knew they would never last and he would move again. Always being the new kid is tough going, especially for teenagers. The resilience they are obliged to have can sometimes be a barrier.

This is a perfect summary of the situation. Children love their parents instinctively even if they are flawed or downright bad. And their childhood is their childhood. They adapt to what life throws them or they break mentally under the strain. Yes she's become resilient because she's had to be and she's come to appreciate certain positives from her upbringing.

That's a sign of someone who has had to toughen up and become very self-reliant. It's not an indication, to be brutal, that you did anything right.

My father was deeply selfish, also entirely preoccupied with his career and repeatedly had affairs. He was also very erudite and intelligent and taught me a lot about a lot of things.

As an adult I can see objectively that there were certain advantages that came from having a highly intelligent and ambitious father and I've leveraged those where I can because it would be silly not to take advantage of the gifts I was given. But that doesn't mean he was a good parent and it doesn't mean he didn't damage me.

You will only be able to repair this relationship if you make peace with your own shortcomings and acknowledge the harm you've done to your child. If you can do this, you have a chance. If you continue making excuses and trying to put the most positive gloss possible on the situation your daughter will completely detach from you.

I do also hope that OP's DD doesn't find this thread because if I read the things OP has posted it would confirm that my Mum didn't care about me that much.

Saying her Dad was 'evil' but that she left her DD with him - why would anyone leave a child they cared about with a man who they considered 'evil'? You could argue that she only meant in regard to her but a child can't see that and even a young adult I think will struggle to believe that point of view after suffering so much trauma.

Saying a mere job made her want to live again, with the obvious inference their child did not - that's how a child would read it. Even if that's a wrong reading, it's asking an awful lot for a child not to take that personally, even if they're now an adult.

Children aren't supposed to have to have adult levels of empathy for their parents, at least not until they're quite mature adults themselves. The parenting relationship is supposed to be much more one way and supportive, even in young adulthood.

And presumably OP's DD is surrounded by other young people with mothers who were far more present in their childhood. Some of them probably moan about their mothers still doing their washing when they go home or constantly calling / texting them - the small acts that show love that yes are irritating but also help foster a deep sense of security. The comparison must be really hard for her.

Honestly I think the past is best left in the past with an apology, listening to what OP's DD says about what she feels and what she wants now and really taking on board her point of view about what is possible going forward. I really think nothing good will come of OP 'explaining' over things that can never be changed. That will only be possible many years later after the relationship is rebuilt if at all.

You cant really blame her for what she has said, you sound like a horrible selfish person and a absolutely terrible mother (not that you have even acted like a mother).
I'm surprised she even still speaks to you.

She doesn’t need a mum, as in the mum she needed as a youngster, but you can apologise for the pain, your absence made her feel. You can apologise for bad mouthing her dad and say you were struggling and made mistakes.

She needs you to be more consistent with her, to keep trying to build a bridge and show her you care. She feels estranged from you, she rarely sees you and deep down she wants to feel loved by you. You need to show interest in what she is doing and how she is feeling and her plans for the future.
You have to make the next move, you ring her and apologise, say you know she’s right, that you apologise for not being the mum she deserved. That you were upset when she said she doesn’t think of you as a mum, that you feel very ashamed and a lot of guilt. You want a closer relationship with her, you’ve always loved her dearly. That no explanations or apologies can undo the damage your absence caused her but you want to be there for her now.

Yes, exactly. I’m really surprised at the overly critical comments here, as if people have not ever got anything wrong?

I’m not critical of what she said after the affair, but I am critical of two parents who blatantly put their own careers ahead of their child, as is clear from the OP.

AIBU to feel like I should explain my side of the story to her? Or have I been ridiculously selfish and this is a result of my own actions?

Op you defo explain your side to her, and yes it does sound like you've been selfish but im not saying this to be nasty to you. You seem to have got caught up in yourself without meaning to. This doesn't mean you cant try and you should most definitely try. I would start by acknowledging and accepting her feelings and telling her you want to work towards making things right. You can explain your side without making a justification, there also needs to be acknowledge of your failings but you can most definitely fix this or at least get to a better place. It doesn't sound like you had any bad intentions and no doubt you love your daughter Good luck Op. Wishing you both all the best.

By the sounds of it you were more focused on your career than the stability of your daughter. That must have been very confusing to hear you say that he's evil but then leave her alone with him. Although you are human, we all do and say things we done mean and especially you caught him in your bed with another woman you must have been really hurt. The message from your daughter is her reaching out so , I'd definitely focus more on her hurt and how you'd do anything to repair this. You could mention that at the time you were in a deep depression but obviously don't make it about you. Maybe you could try family therapy??

Take a step back, your excuses are just going to make it worse.

There is time to rebuild your relationship but you can’t make a massive deal out of it the more pressure you put on it the more likely it is to fail.

You can’t control what’s happened, only what’s going to happen. All you can do is try to be the best version of her mother going forward. In time your dd may become close to you and alter her perception of you as a parent. Making mistakes is fine - it’s how we deal with the fallout of these mistakes which shapes what happens in the future.

You need a lot of therapy, and to pay for her to have it too. Your response to her saying she feels Italian is very telling that you're still only considering your feelings and not her feelings and experience. I can understand her reply, and the fact you cried in public and made it about you AGAIN would have driven her nuts.

Agree. I wouldn't appreciate being told I need therapy by a mother I rarely see.

Don't ruin a good apology with an excuse.

Own it, I'm sorry I prioritised myself and didn't notice it was to your detriment. Tell her about the depression and without digging in to it and say it was bad judgement on your part because her dad had hurt your feelings and you had mental health problems and you know that doesn't excuse it but you hope she's an adult maybe she can start to forgive you. And ask what she needs now.

Shes young, she was hurt and she might be lashing out but the way forward is patience and love

Hi @Strangersev fellow International school TCK mum here.
Ppl who haven’t moved around a lot don’t understand this way of life really. The positives and negatives. It’s very alien to a lot of people in the Uk. You gave you DD great opportunities that clear.
It does sound like there there was a lot of turmoil though.
Maybe let the dust settle a bit and see if she would be open to some family therapy for the two of you. With a really good therapist - and I would tap into your contacts and maybe even previous international school Councellor for someone really good who understands the TCK and internationally mobile families and can provide zoom therapy that you and your daughter can attend.
The divorce rate for marriages in these international and mobile families is higher than usual. People do not understand the pressures who have not lived it.

@Strangersev
Everything is obvious with 20/20 hindsight.
I think you’ve been treated harshly in this thread.

Once your daughter has a serious relationship or children of her own, she might get a bit more perspective. Give her time.

Yes, it does sound like you and your husband were more career focussed than parents, but she’s had a lot of opportunity too from the lifestyle you gave her.

You also gave her choices to stay in Geneva for school or Paris. Many teens don’t get a choice when their parents divorce or move. I don’t know what was stopping you staying in Geneva this time, but you could have dragged her to Paris with you earlier and you didn’t.

It must have felt gutting being othered, especially when the husband was the one who brought a woman into the home you worked hard to make. And you stayed quite holding the secret while he left you both home in the evenings. It must have felt doubly gutting that despite him straying from the family, he comes out shining in your daughter’s eyes because he stayed… was it for the daughter or the new partner?

Your anger was legitimate- but it shouldn’t have been funnelled through your daughter.

Regards the meeting 6 times over the course of her degree in the UK, it sounds like you went twice a year? That’s decent. More than most of international friends’ parents.
And all this was while she went travelling every summer and to her dad’s for every Christmas? How many times did your adult woman daughter come visit you?
The Dad was wrong, you were wrong, she’s a wrong herself - if a bit spoilt.
Apologise once. Really mean it. Don’t spend your life begging. move on with therapy.

I'm going to offer a slightly more understanding perspective because I also have an international career. In the career I have it is incredibly common for men to live away from their families for huge chunks of time and of course no one criticises them for 'lack of stability' - including probably their own children, because the social conditioning works on them too (incidentally most of them adopt a 'what goes on tour stays on tour' approach and divorce is massively common).

No one talks about these men 'abandoning' their children.

The OP is getting a ton of criticism for something that was the result of both parents parenting decisions. Dad was also moving around. Divorce is messy and people often trashtalk the other parent. It's not great but it's not unusual.

Nonetheless her daughter feels like she has a poor relationship with her mum, which is also understandable. I think you can fix this in adult to some extent and have a good relationship as adults. I suspect that as she gets older as well there will be more understanding that adults make complicated, bad, decisions often. She might make some of her own.

OP you could post anonymously on Two Fat Expats on Facebook or even on the living overseas section here, you'll get more understanding of globally mobile lifestyles there and maybe some ideas. You can't turn back the clock at all (we've made the decision to stay put for secondary which is total trash for my career and I hate it- I itch to go somewhere every single day), but you might figure it out going forward. Good luck.

OP from your original post it sounds as if you prioritised your need above hers. You can’t blame your dd for feeling the way she does. My dd1 is a similar age and at uni and I couldn’t even imagine only seeing her 6 times in 3 years. It’s just something so alien to me.

apologise. Don’t make excuses. Apologise for leaving her. Apologise for making her feel awkward when you bad mouthed her dad, who, yes, was a dick to you, was the present parent for your dd. You can’t blame her for having a closer relationship with him. Promise her you’ll try harder and do better in the future. On the plus side, it does seem as if your dd has grown into a sensible and independent young woman. So that’s good at least.

I was globally mobile as a child and would now be known as a 'third culture kid'. I still don't think that OP's daughter has been prioritised here and I'm not hugely surprised by her reaction.

I'm not saying she has been prioritised or she is wrong to feel that way, but that's down to both parents and I think the OP is getting much more personalised criticism than a man in similar circumstances would (and let's face it he would not be posting to ask).

A family therapist who specialises in international families (if the daughter wants to) would be a good idea.

She never seems to speak unless she really has something to say
OP this line from you speaks volumes, your daughter is telling you loud and clear that she does not feel heard

This. She is brave for speaking her truth.

It's not really about OP's ex, who doesn't sound great - it's about OP and her DD. There's a lot of posts suggesting family therapy for her but I haven't seen any indication on this thread that OP's DD wants a closer relationship. She was just factually explaining how she felt - that's obviously come as a bit of a shock to OP, but it may well be that she has processed her childhood and is happy with minimal contact.

Validate, validate, validate her feelings and apologize. And maybe offer to pay for some relationship therapy for you and your DD.

Sounds like your poor daughter drew the short straw when it came to parents.

Aside from your international moves and prioritising jobs, your mental health will have had an impact. It is bloody hard to be a child to a parent with mental health issues. She was aware as a child you tried to kill yourself and then was effectively forced to move with you at 16. At that point she clearly threw herself into the diploma and sports but that was going to be a choice she made, possibly as a protective mechanism. People with depression are hard to live with and she will have grown up fast and had to become tough. You can’t undo that and that tougher, independent exterior will have been a coping mechanism.