DD has said she will never view me as a mum

[Strangersev]

Hi all, this could be long and I want to say straight away I know I messed up, I just don’t know how to reply, I’m not looking to minimise my actions.

So background, my ex husband and I both had jobs which involved moving relatively frequently, we had one child, and over the 18 years of her childhood she lived in 5 countries (Canada, Italy, Singapore, Switzerland, and France). I am British, her dad is Italian.

For the first 10 years of her life I’d say we were a very happy family, we lived in Italy for 7 years which provided a real period of stability. We then moved to Singapore, this was more for my sake than my ex husbands but much like Canada in the early years he was willing to make a compromise for my career. However here is where cracks started to form. We lost our way with parenting, would have loud and dramatic fights and often our poor little DD would be witness. I regret this period deeply and 2 years later we moved to Switzerland, this was meant to be a happy middle ground, good career opportunities for us both and DD hadn’t really enjoyed life in Singapore so we thought this may be more familiar.

My ex husband immediately started having an affair, I knew but for 2 years just allowed it to happen. I lied to our DD about him working late when I knew he was with her, I didn’t question or press him on where he was, however 2 years in I came home to them in our bed. This was my breaking point, I spiralled, had a mental breakdown and went into a deep depression. I decided for 6 months I’d move back to my parents home in the uk, my husband and I agreed we would divorce. We spoke to DD and she insisted she wasn’t moving again, she liked Geneva, she was happy at school. I accepted that 6 months apart from her would be a sacrifice worth making. The 6 months passed and I was offered a dream role in Paris. My mental health wasn’t great still, I felt selfishly like I needed to make a decision that was best for me, so I took the job. I asked DD to move with me, she refused. Geneva to Paris was a very manageable distance though, I spent all the holidays with her and we had a lovely time. I do realise now I was saying horrible things about her dad to her during this time and that was immature and cruel of me.

Once DD finished that phase of schooling at 16, her dad got offered a job in Luxembourg which he decided he was going to take. DD was offered Paris or Luxembourg for her diploma years and settled on Paris. I think upon reflection this was very little to do with me and more that for a 16 year old girl Paris is perhaps the more inspirational place to live. I thought her living with me again would be wonderful but the reality was she took 7 subjects for her diploma instead of 6 (wanted to take all her languages) and the time taken up by other elements of the IB diploma meant she was never really home, distance grew between us massively in this time. I started a new relationship which at the time I didn’t feel guilty for as she was really never home in the week and on weekends she’s often want to go to her dads.

DD then took a gap year, and after that went to university in the UK. She is now graduating this summer.

I met up with her for lunch yesterday. She told me about the masters she will be doing, how excited she is to move back to Italy. I realised that in the 3 years she has been living in my home country I’ve only seen her 6 times. She always spends Christmas with her dad, spent summers travelling so it felt difficult to see her. I asked her jokingly if she felt more “British” after her 3 years and she said not at all. She is a third culture kid but If asked to pick she would always say she is Italian. I was hurt by this initially and told her this. She then said “I don’t even really view you as a mum”. This broke my heart I started to cry and she said she was best going.

She messaged me this morning explaining that she can’t view me as a mum as when she was 14-16 I messed with her head. I told her that her dad was evil and cruel yet I left her with him alone. She listed all the ways her dad has been a more selfless parent and more supportive parent.

I am now sad heartbroken and stunned, I don’t really know how to reply? Of course I can and will apologise and I don’t plan to defend my version of events but I feel like I should at least explain?

AIBU to feel like I should explain my side of the story to her? Or have I been ridiculously selfish and this is a result of my own actions?

Any advice much appreciated/

Don’t be a chat show host with quips and platitudes. It’s asinine
Wasn’t cruel?Didnt abuse her? It’s not a race to the bottom to determine which is worst. Emotional absence or abuse?Cruelty or infrequent visits?
The daughter has expressed her dissatisfaction that’s what @Strangersev needs to hear and think about.
Gushy platitudes and Whataboutery aren’t helpful

Oh OP, did you never wonder why she spent every moment she could away from home when she lived with you? Did you honestly think that was just "independence"? I don't think you know her at all, how could you?

I'm sorry that you've had struggles with your mental health but I'm so glad that your daughter seems to have survived her upbringing.

I hadn't thought about this, very good point. The poor lass.

I told her that her dad was evil and cruel yet I left her with him alone

I would not leave my children alone with someone I thought was evil and cruel, I would consider doing so child neglect. What I presume and hope you mean is that he was evil and cruel to YOU but in fact a good father TO HER (which seems to be backed up by her actions and what she herself has said to you). This sentence is telling (as is the rest of what you write) in that you seem to only see things from your point of view and are incapable of centering your child. What you describe is emotional abuse, I'm afraid. It may be you were unaware you were doing this because you were so hurt by your husband's infidelity but you can't go back and change the past now.

Most parents realise that they need to not slag off their ex's to their children as that is unfair and damaging to the children, it's a lack of normal parental boundaries. Where the ex has truly been cruel and evil the children eventually come to that realisation through their own lived experience (and then often choose to go no contact in adulthood) however your daughter seems to consider her father as the better parent and has listed reasons for this.

I'd suggest you get some counselling to come to terms with your daughter's opinions which I think are highly unlikely to change at this point in time. You cannot change her mind with words or arguments. She's lived the life over many years and come to this conclusion. You may have good reasons for the way you behaved - e.g. your own mental health struggles - but arguing now will not change her opinion and it's unfair to tell her about your mental health difficulties in detail even now - that's not her burden to bear. In fact I suspect you're more likely to drive her away if you argue and try and convince because you seem to want her to hear you and to some extent take on some of your emotional burden but not to listen to what she's saying which is a repeat of the pattern she's lived through. The counselling may help you to find a better way to express yourself to your daughter and a way to consider her point of view without immediately going on the defensive. It may also help you navigate a way to maintain a positive relationship with her going forward. Now she's an adult she really doesn't have to see you if she doesn't want to. An apology for the extent to which you messed up would probably be a start.

It also sounds like you have had fairly high powered jobs and so you managed to overcome your mental health struggles to be successful there but not to have appropriate boundaries around your daughter, which she likely sees as a choice. It's difficult to argue that your mental health meant you couldn't manage to do anything successfully given you were fairly regularly being offered dream jobs. Presumably you wouldn't have stayed employed if you were constantly slagging off your ex at work to the exclusion of all else so surely you can see that your daughter considers the fact you couldn't show the same restraint with her hurtful? Given how much you've moved around, i assume you had sufficient money to have paid for parenting classes or for counselling to help you with the many difficult transitions for your daughter - did you do any of this?

Good luck with the counselling - i hope you can find a way to have a positive relationship with your daughter going forward. The first step in doing this is truly listening to what she has said and apologising for hurting her.

I wonder if mn should take this thread down to protect the daughters privacy? OP isn't likely to consider it.

I remember when she was 16 and moved to Paris she said “please don’t try and kill yourself again, I don’t want to find you like that”.

She moved to a completely new country with a parent she was worried about to say the above and then was extremely busy so there was little contact with you - and none of this gave you pause?

I do think you need some sort of counselling because this entire thread shows your thinking in a poor light and so very focused on the past and justifying the past - I think you may need external support to move forward and focus on building a better relationship.

My point which you missed. Is that her relationship is not past improvement.
And making a positive comment to a person who is clearly already distraught. Is much better then piling on with the countless negative comments she already has on here.

I understand the breakdown but I think the two big issues are

1. She left a child with a man she then demonised to that child
2. At the end of the six months when she was ready to go back to work, presumably having recovered, she didn't return to her child but moved to Paris.

Only noticing now that she's only seen her six times in three years doesn't exactly improve things.

You just have to accept that you messed up massively. 90% of parenting is just being there day to day. A parent who moves away for less than military service or life saving humanitarian aid work is going to have a very hard time justifying their absence from their child’s life.

This is true for both men and women. Far too many parents think that after divorce they can parent effectively from far away. It just doesn’t work that way.

Admit to her that you made mistakes. Tell her you want to repair the relationship and that you accept it will take time.

Of course she couldn’t feel able to go with you in England, or join you in Paris. She was utterly terrified of walking in on your dead body. Yes, you were hurting, but she will have been a total mess.

I think this is enormously significant. To have a parent die by suicide is the ultimate abandonment. It must have been horrific and bewildering to her as a young teenager and to have no one to talk about it to because she was not supposed to know will amplify the trauma. She will have wondered why you didn’t want to live for her. That might not be fair but that’s how children think.

It sounds as though she has ‘gone low contact’ with you and that she never had an emotionally confiding relationship with you even whilst you lived together. She sounds as though she did not have the emotional parenting she ought to have had from anyone. Being so self contained is not always good. Shut down might be another word that could be used.

I do very much hope that she is OK. Just because it looks like it superficially I would not be too sure that’s true. It sounds as though there is money in the family. I hope she has an excellent therapist.

Apart from anything else telling her daughter that the husband is evil and cruel (her words) then leaving her daughter with such an awful man is telling her daughter that she doesn't care that much about her. Because who leaves a child they love and value with someone so awful?

The fact she was so willing to leave her child with her ex either means she didn't love her daughter that much or that at heart she knew he was a good parent. I assume the latter, but then the slagging him off would be really confusing to a child who can't really understand marital fidelity at that point in her life.

This doesn't seem to have occurred to OP. I really think this is beyond the help of MNetters (awesome as we are) other than recommending extensive counselling with someone experienced in family therapy.

The positive is that coming on here and asking about this hopefully means OP is open to changing. And her daughter hasn't gone completely no contact so seems open to a relationship going forwards. But no-one really wants to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't listen to their point of view.

Good point, offering to pay for counselling for her daughter might be a really good olive branch. It would be a form of apology too. It does seem the daughter likely needs counselling.

Most people don't really understand what suicidal mental breakdown is like.
Secretly, they think people are weak and they would never do something like that etc. Judgemental, pouring scorn on this poor woman's parenting standards.

The reality, to attempt to kill oneself, the dark hell of depression and suicidal ideation, is a horror.

I'm really sorry it happened to you. I'm sorry it impacted on your ability to parent.

I also don't judge you for crying when she said you didn't feel like her mum, that's a normal response.

It's the past now. Work towards the future.

Therapy for whoever wants it.
Patience
No expectations
Consistency

Focus on yourself too. Be happy, life is short. As you well know.

Family therapy would be ideal but it doesn’t seem as though she would currently want that.

He was the one moving too it wasn't just her career ffs everyone is determined to lay the blame at the OPs door completely missing the fact that he too was responsible for this lifestyle and yes moving away for 6 months was hard but you can't stay in a marriage after your spouse has been having sex in your actual bed ffs what if it had been the child walking in on them? He didn't care she ignored his affair for two years he was so mad about it he did something she couldn't ignore

Pathetic

This thread isn’t about him. He’s a complete asshole too, but this is about the OP’s relationship with her daughter.

Sorry OP this must have been tough to hear. It sounds like she has thrived regardless and for this you should be proud and thankful and tell her so.
I do think you messed up, we and many of my friends and peers have cut income, worked less, taken roles that are below our cabilities and experience, just so we can be present for our children. If I went where the work and money was, I would be earning probably 5 x what I am now, and so would my husband.
You and your husband chose yoyr priorities and it was not your daughter and for that you should acknowledge and apologise..

You can't g9 back and change the past, focus on how you make a relationship from now on, with particular reference to what your daughter wants.

Your personal circumstances while she was growing up were a bit rackety by the sounds of it, in spite of which she has clearly learned that she couldn't rely on you and yet managed to emerge as a balanced and self-sufficient young woman. She is not going to need and rely on you now in the same way other people rely on parents, just try and make it work whatever way you can.

You haven't lost her as a daughter; children want to be loved by their parents.

Sadly a lot of your actions over many years communicated to her that you didn't love her, or at least, not in the way she needed.

To repair the relationship, you now meet as adults, and she is now independent. She doesn't need to be parented so much now, but she does need to be loved. Respect that, and offer her a connection on her terms. Listen to her more than anything. Listening alone is so so powerful.

As other posters have said, you need talking therapy to repair your own wounds, before you can really love her the way she needs. It will be a long process and can be painful, but it will be worth it.

You have been through so much, but there is great hope for the future if you can be humble, take responsibility, and show up for her in every way that she needs at the moment.

Sending hugs

This woman has explained she tried to kill herself three times and people are still keen to scold her and highlight their superior parenting choices. Such compassion on show.

Sounds like you and your husband put your own wants and needs before your daughter and now it’s biting you in the bum. A child should only know both parents love them until they own enough to make a decision about someone’s character themselves. I think the fact that she’s still in contact with you, you should consider yourself very lucky and try not to make excuses for your actions.

When you moved to Paris and she said she didn't want to and she was in the middle of her studies and settled, this is when you should have stayed for her and found some work there.
Don't bother explaining all of your reasons I would write her a note and say you know you should have been a better mum and you are sorry, you hope she will allow you the chance to do better.
You do sound like you have used the "she's very independent" excuse a lot, fact is you and her dad made her have to be independent and then you could do less parenting congratulating yourself on this chic, worldly, independent daughter.

I don't know what thread you're reading - no-one has done that. In fact many people have said lots of parents make mistakes. But what OP is failing to do is see things from her daughter's point of view.

I think everyone understands that when OP was at her darkest she couldn't parent her child. However, after this period she was well enough to have a very high powered job and chose to do that rather than take a slightly less dream job and return to be a present parent for her daughter and perhaps allay some of her daughter's fears. That's a choice. Someone who is mentally capable of doing a high powered job and keeping their job can manage to not slag off their ex to their daughter. She could have paid for counselling for that. That's is a choice.

She also didn't ask for sympathy with her mental health struggles, she asked about her relationship with her daughter. If she wants to have a relationship with her daughter then she needs to listen to her daughter's experience of her parenting. Her daughter is an adult and has absolutely no obligation to maintain contact and is unlikely to continue to do so if OP can't show sufficient respect and care for her daughter to listen.

Jesus. I feel sorry for your daughter OP.