Couples therapy in abuse...any therapists here?

[Brokenbeyondrepair1]

I know AIBU isn't the right place but posting for traffic.

If possible some sensitivity would be appreciated because I'm really struggling.

I'm in an abusive relationship. Mostly emotional/financial but I'm completely at rock bottom. I know I need to leave but I've no strength, self esteem or energy and don't want him to leave me, despite feeling traumatised. He presents as a Narcissist. I hate using this word because it's very overused, however he fulfils every characteristic.

We are having relationship therapy. This has been forced upon us for reasons I won't go into. Ultimately I know I need to leave and have individual therapy but I don't want to.

However I'm struggling and don't know how to deal with sessions. I'm open and honest but everything is used against me. I effectively sit there crying, shaking and trying to dissociate because I can't cope with it. She is a good therapist and does challenge etc but I know she has to remain impartial. I just feel I'm trying to defend myself because he tells lies.
I don't even know what I want to ask at this point. I suppose if there are any couples therapists, I'd like some reassurance that you can pick up on his traits. I don't even know why it matters.
For 3 days after a session I have a headache, feel very emotional and struggle. I don't really know where to turn. I feel this process may destroy me as it will empower him.

Hi op, this is awful. No wonder you're struggling.

I agree with contacting womens aid urgently. I would ask for their help in advocating with the social worker.

Suggesting you do relationship therapy is hugely inappropriate for a domestically abusive relationship and will never work. It was a totally unprofessional ask from the social worker and demonstrates a lack of awareness of domestic abuse and also the logistics of counselling. That needs to be spelt out to the social worker and a women's aid worker will be able to help with that. I'd try to leave as soon as you can and honestly I'd ask to speak to the social workers senior and tell her what's happening and how it's affecting you so they can do what they need to and help you leave.

I would also say that not all therapists are equally informed in domestic abuse. Many will cite it as something they deal with but that doesn't mean she's actually genuinely informed. That rings real alarm bells for me.

Please please please please complete the Freedom Programme.

And check out the book Why Does He Do That? By Lindy Bancroft.

You are complicit in the abuse and emotional neglect of your children. You cannot meet their needs if you are disassociating/broken.

“Childhood exposure to parental psychological abuse — name-calling, intimidation, isolation, manipulation, and control — appears to be more damaging to children’s future mental health than witnessing physical violence between parents, according to a new study conducted at the University of Limerick (UL), Ireland.”

psychcentral.com/news/2017/05/16/witnessing-parental-psychological-abuse-may-do-more-harm-than-physical-abuse#1

OP sorry I don't have time to RTFT but don't want to read and run. My mother went through similar as you (was hellish), and over the last couple of years I've had my own run-ins with couple therapists.

I've come to think that 'therapyland' is a very strange place inhabited by people whose job it is to help couples communicate better, but who believe that the fact that one in three women will experience abuse in a relationship (Europe-wide average according to a recent large-scale study) over their romantic lifetime is irrelevant to this task. Really, it's a study in structural sexism.

They presuppose what would be the ideal result of therapy, i.e. a situation where the balance of power between both halves of a couple is even, notwithstanding the fact that acres of statistics show that women remain way more vulnerable, especially after the arrival of children. They are way more likely to suffer setbacks in health and career and (see above) way, way more vulnerable to abuse.

And then somehow the person who reports problems becomes the problem. Shooting the messenger appears to be part of the method. The systematic assumption that 'there are faults on both sides' and that the therapist has to be 'fair' hobbles them from ever fully acknowledging that sometimes, one person is the perpetrator and the other the victim in a relationship. Even though that is one of the most basic facts about relationships.

I think you can't do much more than try to protect yourself by minimising involvement. Grey rock, offer as little suface for attack as you can. If you fight, you're merely 'hysteric'. Stay very calm, take deep breaths, push back against factual inaccuracies, but otherwise just let it wash over you.

Or if you're feeling confrontational, send the therapist this:

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/w/ddn-20241125-3

and ask whether abuse has been part of their training, and if not, why the hell not.

All the best. One way or another, you'll get out. Will think of you next time I light a candle.

As someone who was a child in this situation, you need to stop thinking about whys and thinking of what you are going to do to improve this situation for your children. Shift your focus there and maybe you can save your future relationship with your kids.

I believe OP has all the knowledge already and I truly believe has the strength to leave. I did that, read stuff, stuff I already knew, putting off the ACTION.

ACTION speaks louder than words.

Ok, look, this is ridiculous. You have already done the freedom program. You know absolutely and you knew going in—that therapy was not permitted for a couple where there was abuse. what was your goal in going to therapy at all—what did you think should happen? Did you secretly hope the therapist would take your side? Act as judge and jury?

You keep harping in the therapists success or failure in holding him accountable or speaking back or catching him out-that is not what therapy does. Its not what therapy is for.

Work on getting out instead of involving more people in the relationship. No one is responsible for you snd your health and happiness but you this is a lonely but true fact. Another true fact which PP have explained to you is that from the children’s point of view “once or twice you are a victim but after that you are a volunteer.”

Stop waiting for her to discover your voice . If you want a woman to defend you and represent your interests hire a shit hot lawyer and take him to court for money. That will be much more satisfying.

You’re ruminating on entirely the wrong thing. Couples counselling is not going to make anything any better, the only thing that will- is leaving. Stop worrying about how and why you feel what you feel and get on with it! The only person who can make it happen is you, it’s in your control and in your power.

If you can’t do it for you, then do it for your poor kids! Come on op, I know you can do it.

I'm finding it really hard to understand how you can say that that you know your children - your actual children who are dependent on you for safety and wellbeing - would be better off if you end this relationship, and yet every day you choose to stay.

You seem to be waiting for someone rescue you - your husband by changing and finally loving you, or this therapist to wave a magic wand. It's not going to happen, OP.

You're an adult, not a child. It's time for you to rescue yourself, and your children.

I'm sorry but I really need to ask again. Did a social worker ask you to attend couple therapy? Knowing that the relationship is abusive? If this is true, please consider making a complaint on the basis that this is harmful and damaging advice and doesn't meet your and the children's support needs around domestic abuse. You really must stop this therapy.

I recognise the pattern here, you need to rescue yourself OP.

You're trying to get someone else (and a whole mumsnet board) to tell you you're right and to validate you. However what's developing is a pattern of you seeking help but not engaging with it.

The underlying foundation of couples therapy is that you are both there to talk about and fix the dynamic. The idea isn't that she is a referee deciding who is right or wrong in a situation.

If she tells you this relationship isnt fixable, like the person you disclosed this to initially, and probably like the social worker who raised the concerns and like all the people on this thread. What are you going to do?

You can't keep trying to pull people by telling them awful stuff but then lack action.

In someways the more people tell you that he's wrong, the more it allows you to stay in the relationship because it calms you down, makes you feel more validated and more able to sit through the next fight because it pushes breaking point further away

The only answer anyone can give you is to leave. You have the choice if you keep asking the question.

He is never going to be able to look at his behaviour, genuinely accept what he's doing, apologise and mean it, and then become a decent husband.

This is never going to happen. Ever. It is not within him to do so. He is not capable of it. This seems to be the hardest thing to grasp. You cannot logically reason him out of his position. There is nothing you can say that will make him suddenly see things the way you do. There's some evidence, it seems, that men who perform this sort of coercive control have a personality disorder (NPD) and just can't interact with their spouses in a normal or healthy way.

I witnessed it in my own mother. The rigid adherence to the belief that if she just tried hard enough, she could finally make him see that he was wrong, not her. She banged her head against that brick wall for 25 years. Even now, she still can't seem to get her head around it. The last time we had a conversation about it, she said something about how he promised, every time we moved house, that this was going to be the magic solution that would fix his unhappiness, but it never was, and she couldn't understand why none of the solutions worked. I said, quite bluntly, he lied. She couldn't get her head round it.

Change will come when you stop trying to win this fight and decide that you CBA to have it any more. Let him think it's all you. Let him tell everyone it's all you. Let some of them take his side, it's OK. You don't need the whole world to believe you before you can change your situation. You don't actually need anyone to believe you, including him. Trust that other people aren't all stupid and some of them will work it out for themselves.

Every time he starts on you, and you participate by being determined to defend yourself, you keep this cycle going and make it harder to disconnect from him. Him starting on you, you having a massive emotional reaction to it, desperate to defend yourself, him not letting you, you clinging on to the idea that if only you could put your POV across he would see sense and things would change, that attempt failing and you on pins waiting for him to start on you again and give you another opportunity to state your case, and that attempt failing, so you're even more on edge waiting for the next opportunity, and so on, and so on, and suddenly you're 50 and your kids have left home and won't visit and your health is in the toilet and you're telling yourself that you're too old to leave him now, because you can't cope on your own, and anyway, you can't leave until you've made him understand. Does this sound familiar?

This is the thing we're never allowed to say, isn't it, that the mother has some responsibility here. I feel very similarly towards my mother. Her refusal to act has ruined any chance of ever having a normal relationship with her.

I'm a trainee therapist but I don't need to rely on any of my training to give my opinion on your issue. I think if you're in an abusive relationship the only solution is to leave. No amount of therapy will help if he's lying or exaggerating and especially if he's not even listening to what you're saying. I get that it's hard to split a family up, I've been there, but you're priority needs to be your health and safety and the safety of your kids. I'd strongly consider personal therapy to figure out what it is YOU want and to get some support in making positive changes to your life.

I had a similar situation and I feel exactly the same. The older I get and the older my children get, the more I blame her for staying and making us live a life that was awful. She died years ago, low and behold through drink “couldn’t cope”. Meanwhile he’s still alive but of course I have no relationship with him.

@PITCHpink I have noticed exactly the same thing - that the older my kids get, the harder I find dealing with my mother.

Don’t do it!! Never have therapy with an abuser!! They are not trained and it will help the abuser turn it all around on you. Leave him he will never change. Read Lundy Bancroft and run!

OP I’m in a similar situation. Im not sure the abuse is as extreme as your case, and I don’t want to leave either but I also need support. I also know I’m responsible for some of the abuse, but DH blames me for all/majority of it.

I’m curious to know from other posters why therapists can’t take on abusive cases? Where are people supposed to go for help?

Find yourself an individual therapist who will help you find the courage to leave this man.

If this couples therapist cannot see you are being abused then she is not worth her salt.

You have one life - do not waste any more of it on the erosion. Can you honestly see any happy resolution to this as a couple?

the erosion = this person ...

That was quite a good Freudian slip.

Most counsellors are trained to reflect back what the person is saying in a neutral way so that that person can think about and re-evaluate what they have just said and the way they view things.
In couples counselling they will facilitate communication and not take sides. With an abusive relationship where one partner is lying about the other, the counsellor will usually not call them out on lying but will just paraphrase their words and meaning. Which can feel like being ganged up on to the other partner.
If you need support go to individual counselling, it will help you to see things more clearly and validate your feelings.

You are not responsible for the abuse btw, that would be your partner

Because as OP has described the abuser uses things said in the session to abuse the victim further. The victim feels a false sense of safety within sessions and speaks her mind and the abuser then has more ammunition to use against her. In the worst scenarios abusers may use things said in therapy as an excuse to beat the victim. It's also totally pointless in terms of improving anything. Domestic abuse is not a relationship or a communication issue and can't be addressed in couple therapy. If you want to improve your life, leave him. If you don't want to do that, contact your local DA service and ask for some individual support for yourself.

Exactly - and the counsellor should not be going along with this. That is a breach of professional duty. This scenario is not suitable for couples therapy.

It is significant that the OP is not engaging in this voluntarily. That is about as big a red flag as I can imagine.

I’m curious to know from other posters why therapists can’t take on abusive cases? Where are people supposed to go for help?

Its couples counselling that is the issue here, not therapy itself. Couples counselling involves being vulnerable in session and an abuser will use this against the victim later. It can escalate abuse and violence.If the therapist knows there is abuse, it is ethically wrong for them to work with the couple. But it is sometimes hard to know what is happening.

But abusers may benefit from therapy (like the kind Lundy Bancroft does) although the prognosis is not good. Victims definitely benefit from therapy. It appears that the OP has already done the Freedom Program but does not appear to want to leave.

I once worked with a woman over a course of about 5 years. At first it seemed her depression and low self esteem stemmed from childhood, and that her husband was a bit clueless and maybe insensitive. Then with more information I felt he was more that clueless, and actually quite nasty. Only during the last course of treatment did she disclose something that was abusive. I had suspected abuse, tried to explore it, but she had never gone there. And I did not want to alienate her and cut her off from help. When she did disclose, it was a remark which kind of popped out and she said she didnt mean to say. I am pretty experienced, but not a mind reader - I have to go with what I am told. She told me my reaction in the session really made it real to her that it was abuse. But obviously had not wanted to say it earlier.

She did leave him in the end, did really well.

Not only can the abuser manipulate the therapist, they can 'therapise' their victim in order to gaslight them and it may escalate the abuse. The abuser may feel criticised or challenged and take that out on his victim.