AIBU to be utterly baffled at how many people are falling for Reform after the Brexit mess?

[TheCoralShaker]

I’m not into any political party or ideology – honestly, they all seem like varying shades of grifters to me – but I just can't believe how many people are jumping on the Reform bandwagon like it's some magic fix.

After everything that happened with Brexit – the lies, the infighting, the broken promises, the economic fallout we’re still wading through – how are people still falling for this kind of simplistic, shouty politics? The "common sense" soundbites, the "tell it like it is" nonsense, the constant scapegoating of whatever group is most convenient that week... it's all so transparent.

I'm not saying any of the main parties are perfect (far from it), but Reform seems to be just a bunch of media-savvy populists spouting whatever will get the loudest headlines. What’s worrying is how many people lap it up without even questioning what’s actually being proposed, or whether it’s remotely feasible.

Where are the critical thinking skills? Why are people so easily seduced by these pantomime figures who tap into anger and offer no real substance? It’s like the more outrageous someone is, the more they’re celebrated, and never mind whether any of it makes sense.

I get that people are frustrated, disillusioned, sick of the status quo, so am I. But falling for another bunch of opportunists who thrive on division and offer nothing beyond slogans seems like doubling down on the same mistake.

AIBU to think that we should have learned by now? Or is this just how politics is going to be from now on, performative outrage and no actual plan?

The main thing I disagree with Reform on is environmental policies (or lack thereof)

But I also recognise that if you want your population to care about climate change, you need to fix their other immediate issues first. Caring about the planet unfortunately is a privileged position to be in. So is caring about illegal immigrants. If the UK was the land of plenty, if people could afford to rent and/or buy their own homes, have decent childcare options, not worry about putting food on their own tables or heating their homes then they would have much more headspace to care about the planet and people potentially fleeing persecution.

Now I am not for one minute suggesting Reform is the party to fix all of this. But I also don’t really believe any party is coming to the table to try and make a meaningful change to people’s lives for the better. It’s a shit situation to be in right now for many.

People are struggling and unhappy and you can hardly blame them for not wanting to give a shit about D&I or climate change or illegal immigrants crossing on boats. They’re being shouted at by the left the whole time, being told they must #bekind and that they’re all privileged because they’re straight/white/british - whatever. I think this is why Trump got in to power.

AGAIN, I feel like I need to state this over and over. I’m not aligned to any party, nor do I support Trump. Just making an observation.

People fall for Reform for the same reason others fall for Labour, the Greens or the SNP - they vote for what they want their chosen party to represent, rather than what they actually represent.

In the case of Reform gaining support, it's not despite of what happened with Brexit, it's because of what happened with Brexit. Many Brexit voters didn't get the kind of Brexit they thought they were voting for - in many cases, a version that was never on the table in the first place.

A substantial number of people voted Leave because they wanted to fully leave the EU and other European bodies that had control over legislation in this country. A lot wanted an end to immigration, and the removal of people who had entered the country over the last few decades (and their relatives born here). They wanted a version of Britain that was self-reliant and dominated foreigners rather than integrated them into our society.

This wasn't what was on offer with Brexit, it's not what Reform are offering either, but Reform represent the closest party to the mainstream who align with such views - even though they don't.

There's also the fact that in someone like Farage there is an alternative to the deceitful politician who pretends to be competent but isn't. Starmer, Johnson, Blair - all useless in their own way, all dishonest and self-serving. Farage is different because there is no pretence that he will be any good - everyone knows he won't be, even his supporters. Perhaps counter-intuitively, this is an attraction for many - they don't want a liar like Starmer, they want a liar like Farage. Trump has shown this tactic can be used very successfully.

Do you mean former LABOUR MP Oswald Moseley?

And your point is @TheNoonBell? I mean is that all you've got? Do you know what the word former means?

Because Labour f*cked up. Big time. And now people want out. People failed to read the labour manifesto - which is as empty as diane abbots head.
And now they've got stung by it, which anyone with half a brain could see was going to happen.

Unfortunatly, as is the way with these things, people have swung from one extream to the other

It’s a bit of a tired old trope to keep comparing Trump and/or Reform to Nazis. It’s another one that nobody is buying anymore

But is it reform setting the agenda or is it that reform are tapping into the feeling of the country.

The last government did nothing about immigration despite the fact the general public feel that it is too high (69% according to IPSOS).

Reform as we all know is extremely anti-immigration, this has led to Labour becoming stronger on immigration.

Is this Reform setting the agenda or is this Labour acting on public feeling due to fear of Reform?

My view is that if you believe in democracy then Reform is actually a good thing because the major parties have ignored the views of the general public on certain things for years. With Reform they are now scared of losing power and so are looking at taking notice of those areas and considering watering down reform ideas and making them more reasonable .

@MargoLivebetter if I knew I wouldn't be here! Seriously, the bonus system for anything public sector is just immoral, and you only need to look at Thames water and the trains to see what a mess all previous governments have made.
I know personally of a few cock ups, which whilst being swept under the carpet and fixed, (GWR new trains with the electrics on the outside, great for London to Bristol etc.., but past Exeter, and ooh, whats that big blue stuff to the left, ah, sea, hmm salt water and electrics - how on earth could that go wrong?).
The ombudsman for each sector actually needs to have power, the constant mess with the water companies has been lack of investment because they must create a dividend, as a homeowner/renter/business your water can only come from one place - therefore, results should be on how much leakage/sewage release etc.., get those to sensible levels, then start giving bonuses.
From my very simple point of view, we as a country seem to be lowering everything to the lowest common denominator, rather than striving for success we are choosing a 'lets not rock the boat' option. We see this everywhere, rather than address the problem (social housing/anti social behaviour/petty crime) a huge song and dance is made about the issue - everyone knows what the issue is, we have a breakdown in getting help to the people which need help!
It's not rocket science, but, and I think that this is the biggest issue, we need to encourage more society involvement, kind neighbours, active hospital helpers, community groups get the anonymous keyboard warriors out of their bedrooms and do things, rather than moan - more encouragement for cubs/scouts/guides etc.., police cadets all this is out there, instead of giving school children credit for turning up and behaving at school, give these credits for active involvement in the community, try and change the relationship at an earlier age.
Yes there will be people who need more help than others, and some will be extremely rich and others very poor, but, and here is an example, the labour party abolished the 'no one will leave school with out being able to read or write' policy, quite a few years ago, how in 2025 we can actually allow young adults to leave education without the basic building blocks for being an active citizen, words fail me.
Sorry getting a bit ranty! I'll take my tablets and go to a dark room.....

I agree - if Labour were doing a good job, Reform would not be getting the attention it is getting. Put simply, the Tories and Labour haven't done a good job of listening to the people while in Government. People want change and Reform are offering that.
People do not need to understand all of Reform policies, it doesn't matter why, when challenged,what Reform voters are voting for. No one has to justify their vote, at the end of the day every vote counts equally whether it's an informed vote or a uninformed vote. No one has to study manifestos to vote. People want change - the present Labour Government and the previous Tory Government are not and were not popular. Instead of insulting Reform voters, try and understand why people are voting for them. There's much room for improvement in our elected representatives - the Labour Party and Conservative Party need to get better and get better quick. Focus on themselves and not Reform.

@Fluffyholeysocks of course no one has to justify themselves, but it helps to understand what motivates people and what they think they are voting for. We do need to try and understand other people's perspectives and why they make the choices that they do. To me that is an essential part of democracy, the representation of people's views.

Do I mean Oswald Moseley, former member of the Conservative Party and then the Labour Party who went on to found the British Union of Fascists? Yes, I do.

A similar trajectory to Reform MP Lee Anderson (although from very different social classes) who was a member of the Labour Party, a supporter of Arthur Scargill, who campaigned for Michael Foot and the Labour Party in the 1983 General Election but who was suspended from the Labour Party for bricking up the entrance to a legal Traveller community site. He then defected to the Conservatives and then to Reform.

Trump has respectable approval ratings. Nothing surprises me anymore.

Absolutely, but it's not helpful to shut them down with insults. For some reason they get called thick (amongst other insults). By insulting people and shutting them down, you are not understanding them.

Agree @Fluffyholeysocks I never understand why when two people disagree it immediately turns into a personal attack on the others. I think we should all talk about these things more. We don't have to agree with the other person's perspective but if we don't try and understand it and just say that they are "stupid" or "woke" then our ears are shut and we're never going to find a way forward that might work for everyone.

Obviously, the media hate compromise. Conflict is a far better seller, pitting one group against another generates clicks and sales. They have a great deal to answer for.

I completely agree with this too. We need to be able to discuss politics and view points in a non-emotional way because it helps nobody.

I know someone who would say something along the lines of “I cannot believe my neighbours have a reform poster in their window. This is a respectable area and all reform voters are thick” and then went on to say they shouldn’t be allowed to vote, and shouldn’t even be allowed to express their views or say their opinions out loud. When pressed further, asked if she believes in free speech, she essentially said that she only agrees with free speech if someone holds the ‘right’ opinions.

It helps nobody. Open, respectful discourse is far better

Any person who votes for a party other than Labour is inherently described as ‘lacking critical thinking skills’. With apparently no sense of irony or indeed awareness of how patronising they sound.

‘If you don’t vote like me you’re thick’, basically.

@carrotycrumble this is all down to social media and certain influencers, you can now live your whole life without having to experience an alternative point of view, add to that the masses of the alternative lifestyle lot who shout from the rafters 'what about me?' whilst disrupting everyone elses day to day activities.
As a country as a whole, we are lacking grown up discussion, politeness when expressing a different point of view, and in general anything complicated or 'triggers' causes panic with the politicos.

Yes you see that on mn a fair bit.

Oh, that's not fair. Sometimes they change it up a bit. This time last year Tory voters weren't thick but immoral for voting for a party who would throw the vulnerable, like the disabled, the elderly and the young under the bus. Apparently people should vote for Labour, presumably to make a proper job out of it?

I clocked an article from 2010 discussing the battle between Labour and the BNP for Barking.

It feels like little has changed in fifteen years.

I am not a reform supporter but work in an area where many are

this are just some of the questions

lots of Reform voters see the problems in cost of living etc as world wide problems which they are ( therefore unlikely to have been caused by brexit which was UK only thing)
Reform voters think the costs of Covid impacting government income and expenditure where the former crashed due to many businesses being closed and the latter because of money on furlough etc as well as NHS
then came Ukraine war which caused fuel oil and gas costs to rocket and food supplies from wheat to drop
These affect all the world food prices and energy prices are high across Europe definitely not caused by brexit
so when folks say we are in this mess because of brexit they don't believe it they see it as the playing them for voting brexit not the real culprits of Covid and war.

also while I understand t it is very complex, it is hard to understand why we are short of nurses and doctors but newly qualified nurses doctors and teachers can't get permanent jobs or training posts
Why do we increase spending on overseas aid but then take the doctors and nurses away from the same countries when they are desparately needed there

There are shortages of care staff and hospitality workers but loads of people are
unemployed

it seems ridiculous to import food and energy in chasing net zero instead of being more self suffiecient in terms of food, energy and things like steel
how is it really helping the planet to use solar panels made in China fuelled by coal fired power stations to be shipped to UK ( it is just because they are made in China the carbon footprint is not counted as UK carbon footprint) instead of using our own oil and gas supplies in the North sea?

why can't my child get help ar school with Maths and English but someone's elses kid gets help because English is second language

if people move here why aren't they required to learn English, You are required to learn the native language in many European countries ie France Denmark Sweden the Netherlands and translators are not provided after a few years

Traditionally builders, plumbers hairdressers voted labour now labour seem to look down on this type of worker and they feel Reform doesn't look down on them ( this is probably not the case as I think all politicians somewhat despise voters)

As someone else said only when people have a decent job, their kids in an okay school and reasonably quick access to health care and justice / police if they need them and a home they can afford will they take interest in issues like climate change, diversity, TWAW vs GC, hunting, in Scotland gaelic signposts in non gaelic speaking areas, the arts etc

While obviously not in the same budget it grates when bins aren't emptied but councillors claim free lunches when everyone else has to pay for their own
but unfortunately the narrative that the reason you are poor is because someone just slightly poorer than you is taking the resources gains traction when actually it is the already doing OK ones that are taking the resources
to use the old analogy if you have a biscuit it seems like the new people also claiming a biscuit are the problem ( you don't mind the folks with 2-3 biscuits they just worked hard) because you are unaware that there is a small group with 10 bisuits an even smaller group with 100 biscuits and a tiny group with 1000's of biscuits, but the group with 1000's of biscuits comtrol all the biscuits and won't share theirs they just redistribute the biscuits between the folks that have 1-3 biscuits in different ways and the next political party does the same redistribuing the 1-3 biscuits in a slightly different but oh so much fairer way but only ever so mildly impinging on the 10-1000's biscuit holders if left wing the 10 biscuit people may go down to 9.5 if right wing they go up to 10.5 but the 3 biscuit people are still lead to believe it is the new 1 biscuit people that are the problem

Basck in the day it was single mothers who were the scourge of society.

How do you persuade them?

By having a party of competent MPs in whom the electorate have confidence to implement the policies that they stood for election on.

And if misinformation is driving people?

You have announced your intention to vote Reform as a local shop is flogging Monster to kids and the righteous menfolk might go round there to sort it out? And then you have tried to link his with the grooming scandal, which is a bit of a reach to say the least. Honestly.