AIBU to be utterly baffled at how many people are falling for Reform after the Brexit mess?

[TheCoralShaker]

I’m not into any political party or ideology – honestly, they all seem like varying shades of grifters to me – but I just can't believe how many people are jumping on the Reform bandwagon like it's some magic fix.

After everything that happened with Brexit – the lies, the infighting, the broken promises, the economic fallout we’re still wading through – how are people still falling for this kind of simplistic, shouty politics? The "common sense" soundbites, the "tell it like it is" nonsense, the constant scapegoating of whatever group is most convenient that week... it's all so transparent.

I'm not saying any of the main parties are perfect (far from it), but Reform seems to be just a bunch of media-savvy populists spouting whatever will get the loudest headlines. What’s worrying is how many people lap it up without even questioning what’s actually being proposed, or whether it’s remotely feasible.

Where are the critical thinking skills? Why are people so easily seduced by these pantomime figures who tap into anger and offer no real substance? It’s like the more outrageous someone is, the more they’re celebrated, and never mind whether any of it makes sense.

I get that people are frustrated, disillusioned, sick of the status quo, so am I. But falling for another bunch of opportunists who thrive on division and offer nothing beyond slogans seems like doubling down on the same mistake.

AIBU to think that we should have learned by now? Or is this just how politics is going to be from now on, performative outrage and no actual plan?

"Rather than just shutting them down as racist or crackpots or ignorant."

But what about when they are those things? (not saying they all are, but certainly a proportion) How do you suggest that's handled?

I acknowledge that your personal experience might be different, but I think there is quite a bit of research that backs up the idea that racism and hostility towards immigrants is highest in the least diverse areas.

Fear of the unknown, I guess. Plus inaccurate perceptions about what's actually happening in other parts of the country, perhaps.

@Toilichte

"It is about mainstream parties engaging in the debate that Reform supporters want to have."

This conversation, that apparently hasn't been happening, has been going on for quite some time. The government have introduced visa changes to bring down immigration and have an immigration bill going though parliament.

That suggests to me, that the government are taking steps to address the issue. The conversation that isn't happening, is on MN and social media all day, everyday. Its not true to say that people aren't talking about it or it isn't being addressed.

The reason Reform supporters are seen as swivel eyed is because they do nothing but talk about immigration yet they complain they're being silenced, they want a government with an uncosted manifesto and no realistic prospect of carrying out anything they're promising and are quite extreme.

This meme sums it up nicely.

They might talk about immigration. And then response is to post a meme of a clown, or to say of course they are being listened to and that’s why they are called swivel eyed. Rather than to say, these are people who have genuine concerns so let’s address them, even if it is to say in a polite, respectful way, actually I think immigration is necessary and so I disagree with you on Xy and z.

However whilst there are points around immigration, as soon as reform supporters bring the issue up, on the radio or in debate people play the man and not the ball. Instantly going for the your racist, intolerant, gammon, swivel-eyed, rather than arguing the actual principles.

But sometimes they actually are racist/ignorant/intolerant etc.! No-one has actually come up with a suggestion for what to do when you have that polite conversation with them but it goes in one ear and out of the other.

Of course these people have always existed but I believe we're in a situation now whereby either their proportion has grown or they are simply more visible/audible due to social media and cultural changes.

This is completely untrue. Immigration has been debated quite fiercely since before Brexit. In the run up to Brexit it was debated significantly, to the detriment of other very important issues.

Since Brexit Immigration has been discussed non stop but unfortunately for Reform supporters, it's a complex issue that doesn't have easy answers. Secondly, Brexit should have been a good indicator of where tunnel vision leads, given its extensive consequences.

Yet again, we're subjected to endless discussions on immigration with the same myopic viewpoint. The government are addressing immigration, as stated above they're making it harder to gain LTR, they're stopping certain countries from applying to study here, they're tightening up visa regulations and they have an immigration bill going through parliament.

If you're going to harp on about shooting people, dumping people in France, mass deportation, tearing up human rights law, tents on beaches and the great replacement theory, you're going to be called swivel eyed. If you want a sensible discussion which so many claim, then begin with facts grounded in reality and make pragmatic suggestions.

It doesn’t matter what they are. Just calling a name is never going to win the debate. Just saying “I think you’re racist” isn’t winning an argument any more than making a point and it going “in one ear and out the other”. In fact it can be even more damaging because it just drives people further into their own echo chambers.

We don’t learn many debating or rhetorical skills in schools. But aside from arming yourself with facts. Often asking a question is a really good debating technique. “We have too much immigration in this country” ok, “but we also have a skills shortage in social care, aside from immigration how do you think this can be solved?” “Seasonal workers in agriculture work at a rate that keeps food prices down and is work that many young brits don’t want to do, do you think that low food prices are something people would choose to sacrifice in order to curb immigration?”

Often winning a debate isn’t just about stating facts, but leading a conversation to a particular conclusion. It depends on who you are speaking to. But I generally find most people want a conversation about most topics

Ah, we know different people.

Thank you for articulating this so well. The art of debate HAS been lost; forget about trying to persuade someone of an alternative point of view with reasonable counter arguments, just call them nasty names really loudly and that'll teach em! Lunacy that way beckons.

I completely agree with you on all but one thing. I don’t enter a debate to win. I try to debate to understand the other person’s position more, perhaps even try and learn something from them. Maybe they will change my mind. That’s the difference between an eristic and a dialectic debate.

But everything else you have said is so spot on in my opinion, I want to applaud you.

Always ask questions! It’s so helpful!

If someone says “immigration is too high”
Just simply ask why do they think it is too high? Are they against all forms of immigration or just some?

This is also a good technique to sort the wheat from the chaff. I’ve had a few men people get on their soap box, arrogantly proclaiming what’s wrong with this or what’s wrong with that and a simple and earnest “what would you do differently?” will either tease out valuable ideas or it’ll shut them up. Win/win

Maybe they will change my mind.

Nothing and nobody will change my mind. My political beliefs have been formed by 50 years of life experience as an adult. My problem is that there’s no longer a political party that aligns with them.