Children are a lifestyle choice

[Seriouslywhatnow]

I've actually lost count of the times I've read this on Mumsnet. Posters saying things like "I don't want to have to pay towards little Jonny's education/ food / maternity care. People should t have kids they can't afford"
It's like they can't see that these children are actually PEOPLE. in their own right. And you're not paying for their education as a favour to their "feckless" -it's always "feckless" - parents but FOR THE CHILD. Just like your education /maternity care / whatever was paid for by others as well.
So many people seem to see kids as just an accessory or possession for their parents, and actually like they were never kids themselves so shouldn't have to pay towards other kids. AIBU?

I don't think it's that simple. I don't mind paying my taxes which fund schools and services for children but I'd be lying if I said I was fine with people having 7 kids and expecting to have huge amounts funded. People should definitely try to be in a good financial position before choosing to have children because it's better for the child but also better for society. Many don't do that and that causes issues.

We need people to have children for the continuation of the species so I don't think that it can be reduced to a mere lifestyle choice.

Of course children are a lifestyle choice. No one has to have children and no one has them for the supposed good of the country/planet. They have them because they WANT a child even sometimes when it is not a good choice to make

Children are a lifestyle choice. And I am certainly not in favour of getting rid of the two child benefits cap. Nobody needs more than two children.

Obviously the state still pays for education, healthcare etc but no direct benefits.

Anyway given we have an overcrowded island and we're destroying the planet, having any more than two children deliberately is a deeply irresponsible thing to do.

As for continuing the species, do we actually need it to continue? But in any event I don't think there's any risk of us dying out unless the climate or Putin kill us.

PS I also think a lot of people DO see their kids as fashion accessories. See also pets.

It doesn't matter why people choose to have them. What's relevant to society is:

• are the children eventually going to be useful, as in fill important employment roles and contribute taxes? Yes. Therefore it's in everyone's interest to make sure they reach adulthood educated and as healthy as possible. Some of this effort should be contributed by parents, and some needs to be raised by the state.

• most people are unhappy witnessing children suffer. If the state provided less then we would start seeing many children begging/homeless and so on. Most people would then shout "the state must pay if the parents cannot".

I kind of see my tax paying for the time when I was a child myself.
Yes, they are a choice, but we need people to choose to have them too.

I don't think other people's decisions to have one, zero or thirty two children is anyone else's business.
I personally know I can't support children financially or emotionally which plays a part in my own decision. But I wouldn't judge other people about it at all.

Two different points.

In this country, children are absolutely a choice. People tend to make that choice based on the lifestyle they want.

That is irrelevant to how we should treat those children, since they didn't make the choice. They still deserve to be warm and fed and educated.

Having children is absolutely a choice and people should only have them if they can afford them. (Obviously their circumstances may change in the future and the state should support the family if needed at such times. However, it is sensible to build in some buffers in your financial resilience as well.)

From the perspective of the individual parents it's mostly lifestyle choice. To be honest it was for me, I definitely had hopes of a family life lifestyle when I decided to have them.

I don't think it works on a societal level to reduce it to lifestyle choice. I think if typical working people can't afford to produce the replacement level of offspring that's going to cause problems.

I’m happy to pay into a system that supports trying working families who have a sensible number of children - free childcare hours, subsidised housing, priority for health care appmts etc. I abhor paying into a system that allows feckless workshy arseholes have 5 kids and to never work a day in their lives and not even raise the kids decently even though they have all the time in the world to do it.

I think it is a lifestyle choice to a point. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't support families and children when they need it. The same way we pay to support aging or sick individuals who do not have children to support them.

Circumstances can change, internal and external, so telling people in difficulty that they should have "planned better" or "not have children if they couldn't support them" - which is what I see a lot on MN - is stupid and ignorant.
No one can plan how their career or health will change in 5, 10 or 15 years, or how the economy will impact them.

They are a lifestyle choice - but they’re also going to wipe your bum and treat your health problems when you’re old. It’s very much in all of our interests for those people to be healthy, educated and not criminals (and in this regard we will pay dearly for the decision to shut schools during covid).

Most people support a welfare state and a safety net, and most people recognise that punishing children for their parents’ shitty decisions is unfeasible. In terms of “lifestyle choice”: there are currently several Active threads where posters are proposing having children in frankly shitty situations, situations which in a few years’ time are without a doubt going to lead them to be complaining about not having enough money, good enough housing, needing more support; yet they’re making that choice - and don’t themselves seem to care for their own children’s welfare. When the rest of us are effectively expected to pick up the pieces of those shitty decisions via increased taxation, it’s hardly going to be with a hooray and good cheer.

Some of the standards I've seen on here for how financially solvent or prepared for every single eventuality are laughable. Like I remember a thread with people claiming that you should have researched all wraparound care and holiday club options in your area before even TTC.

Children are , in the west,very much a lifestyle choice. The single most environmentally damaging action any Westerner can make, is to have a child. If more people did actually understand that the aim is not to have a little baby , but a well formed, responsible adult in short time...they might think more carefully. 2 children max in the West, I completely agree with. The situation is very different in the developing world, where child mortality is still at obscenely low levels, women do not have rights or birth control,and each birth doesn't generate tonnes of plastic and consumables.
The tragedy that 5 million children died before their 5th birthday in the developing world in 2022 ..Unicef reports...yet people in the West must have their own genetic babies,at any cost , with all the capitalist consumerism and pollution that entails...preys on ny mind a lot.
For Westerners, it's most definitely a lifestyle choice. This planet doesn't need any more people for at least 50 years, but the rampant capitalist machine does. And most people just carry on feeding the machine, thinking their children are somehow special 🤷‍♀️

Can I be happy to pay for schools, healthcare and other programs, but also frustrated with parents who knowingly bring children into stressful households?

High stress can come from many sources, but money is often one of the largest. Home life plays a huge role in longterm success and no amount of state programs can change that. Parents who don’t have the resources or the emotional capability to meet their children’s needs make it harder for their children.

I was one of those children. We had plenty of money, but my home life was abysmal. I thankfully was able to leverage financial resources to drag myself to the a successful adulthood, but not every child manages.

I wish parents would be more thoughtful about the responsibility when they choose to procreate.

Fair points. They are indeed a choice to the parents. But once they're here they're people, just like the rest of us. And I can't understand why people resent paying for the same benefits for other children that they had themselves. There is another thread going at the moment about the winter fuel allowance. Plenty of people are using the argument that "being" elderly isn't a choice (obviously it isn't) but "having" children is. Therefore it's more fair to spend money on elderly care than child care. I'm not buying that personally. Children are AT LEAST as worthy of care as everyone else, whatever you think of their parents.

Well, obviously, they are not all going to be wiping bums and treating health problems are they? Quite a few are likely to not work as deciding a life on benefits rather than working seems to be becoming more common

Quite. But because of the way you worded your post, all you'll get is pages of people arguing over whether children are a lifestyle choice or not, rather than your main point.

I’d love to know who those people think are going to be paying for their pensions and wiping their arses.

Yes, a few feckless parents will have multiple children they can’t afford. But our birth rate is dropping, and just because you’re panders are useless doesn’t mean you will be.

Agree. Just like when people decide not to have children they refer to it as ‘a lifestyle choice’ because it does precisely that: massively affect your lifestyle!

However, I’m not opposed to paying (through increased taxes), towards services that help support children. We are part of a wider society after all and it’s everyone’s interests to contribute towards all parts of it as eventually it will come full circle. I don’t have children but others children will grow up and some will be needed to possibly care for me in my old age.

It’s only an annoying subject when parents get ‘number entitlement’ and want more than they can afford which means the tax funds are spread too thin to help every child equally.

No one can choose to live life on benefits instead of working. That is some Benefit Street and Daily Mail rubbish right there.
Most of the people wiping bums in care homes are on benefits as the wages are not enough to live on.

And my dog is the best

The problem with accepting unlimited child benefits and so on is that you encourage the parents. You make very strict and difficult rules for the parents, they will think twice and not have children they can't afford.

No one can choose to live life on benefits instead of working.
except.. most people do?

It's especially noticeable when they claim "they can't find jobs". It would be true, if immigrants who barely speak the language didn't manage to find jobs themselves in a country where they just arrive. We have a legal minimum wage here, we are not talking about slavery.

If so many immigrants manage to find employment and support themselves and their family, you'd think the locals should manage too.