Children are a lifestyle choice

[Seriouslywhatnow]

I've actually lost count of the times I've read this on Mumsnet. Posters saying things like "I don't want to have to pay towards little Jonny's education/ food / maternity care. People should t have kids they can't afford"
It's like they can't see that these children are actually PEOPLE. in their own right. And you're not paying for their education as a favour to their "feckless" -it's always "feckless" - parents but FOR THE CHILD. Just like your education /maternity care / whatever was paid for by others as well.
So many people seem to see kids as just an accessory or possession for their parents, and actually like they were never kids themselves so shouldn't have to pay towards other kids. AIBU?

I have reported him, several times, but nothing ever happens. Makes me so angry

Well quite, that was my point. But always in these types of discussions the same old rubbish about wiping arsed gets trotted out.

Robots will be able do all that.

This.

These sorts of families rarely produce children who will contribute - the poverty of ambition, the lack of any sense of responsibility to contribute, are passed on in so many cases, through the generations.

Disagree, look at the state the world is in. Humans are the most destructive species that exists. I personally would hate to bring children into the world right now with everything that is going on in Gaza, Ukraine etc. We said "never again" after WW2 and yet we seem to have forgotten those lessons and are seeing another genocide play out in Gaza in front of our eyes with children being maimed and dying in front of us. We're also in an age of anthropogenic climate change and are approaching 1.5 degrees of warming already, a number which many scientists have warned us will cause catastrophic climate change in many parts of the world. Democracy is under threat in many parts of the world, including even in the US, with that orange turd in charge and across Europe we're seeing the rise of the far right. Now, is that really a good reason to want to continue the species? If so, you need your head examined in my book.

It's not too bad where I am. No cost for my sons nursery and £296 roughly a month for my daughter with childminder

Plus get up to 85% back being on UC

Children are a lifestyle choice. Especially when you expect other people to pay for them. It’s not a hard concept to grasp

Precisely this. People who have children should be respected because it is not easy and it is a selfless act. You are not guaranteed your children will even like you and choose to have a relationship with you after childhood. I have a child now too. Yes - I wanted a child but also I always grew up with belief that one ought to have some children if they are in a position to for the benefit of the society at large. I'm sorry but it's pathetic of those who think it's selfish. You clearly have no idea how difficult it is to bring up a child.

It's £2k+ a month per child where I am.

It's kind of true that no one can choose to live on benefits. In my personal experience they also do a bit of dodgy cash in hand stuff as well which isn't the same as working and paying tax.

This.

People who have children should be respected because it is not easy and it is a selfless act.

Oh, it is NOT a selfless act! Women post on here day after day about having children because they want to, whatever their circumstances.

Don't make yourself out to be Mother Theresa. Most people have DC because they want to. They're not thinking of their "duty to society" when they're shagging.

Spot on

No way is it a selfless act. Do you really think most people decide to have children because they should and it’s their duty? Really? Even if they are ambivalent or don’t want any? In 2025?

Also, I do know thank you how hard it is to bring up a child, I’m not stupid and I have immense admiration for good parents. I didn’t want one enough to get past that and so I think it shows that I considered any possible offspring and whether I would be a good mum quite selflessly.

Finally to agree with some others on this thread - humans have fucked up our planet, which doesn’t need us, plenty of biodiversity left (even with the way we treat it) for earth to manage quite well without us. No need to push procreation on that basis.

This is not an overcrowded island. There are some major cities that are overcrowded but on the whole, there is plenty of room for everyone and more here. The fact that successive governments have not invested in appropriate infrastructure in the last couple of decades is a totally different thread

It's only fairly recently in history that women have had more of a choice in motherhood thanks to things like birth control and marital rape laws. There are still lots of places where we don't have those protections and even when we do there will still be women with coercive partners, living in a strict religious household, being unable to afford or access healthcare, etc. I'm childfree but try to be mindful of all that because I don't know the circumstances behind each individual woman's journey to motherhood.

They're not a lifestyle choice TO THE CHILD though are they? Any more than being elderly is a lifestyle choice. Yours was exactly the sort of comment I was referring to that I see on Mumsnet all the time. People seem to view children as possessions and not as people in their own right. Kids don't choose to be born FFS and once they're here society have a responsibility to look after them if their families can't afford to. Just as we do with other vulnerable groups.
Do you consider yourself a "lifestyle choice". of your parents? Or a person?

Anyone else planning to pull their kids out of bed tomorrow and say "Hello, little lifestyle choices, this is not working, I'm afraid. I'm planning to trade you in for a miniature pom and Bikram yoga on Saturday morning"?

This has come back into my notifications.

Since we had this discussion I wonder if AI will kill us before we need youngsters to wipe our bottoms for us.

And do we need all these youngsters anyway given there are no jobs?

In the modern Western world, yes, it's a lifestyle choice; people don't need their kids to directly financially support them in old age, people aren't forced by social mores to marry or reproduce, contraception is reliable and easy to access. I think the question is more to what extent governments should TREAT it as just another lifestyle choice, given that the future of humanity depends so much on the current crop of young people's reproductive choices. If birth rates continue to fall, there will be a demographic and economic crisis. Unless we plug the gap with immigration - but this could change our culture irreversibly (whether it's for better or worse being a matter of opinion, I suppose). I think we should have social policy that supports people who want families, because it affects us all. Also because it's feminist - women are disproportionately disadvantaged by having kids, and it shouldn't be so.

There are two basic ways to organise care in all its forms (for the young, the old, the sick): leave it to families (which means the unpaid labour of women), or turn it over to the state and the taxpayer. I think most of us are glad that we can't ever be compelled to care for another adult (including our parent, spouse or child). Maybe a few people who take the piss are just the price we have to pay. We can't have it both ways.

Why on earth would you “respect somebody” solely for reproducing?

I know of people who had their kids removed from them by social services.
But we are meant to respect them? That makes no sense.