To think there’s a real crisis in men being able to express how they truly feel about life and society?

[TheGentleSwan]

It feels like, in the West, men are struggling to be honest about their emotions, their frustrations, and how they view the world. Whether it’s societal pressure, fear of judgement, or just a lack of spaces to talk openly, it seems like many men keep things bottled up. AIBU to think this is a real issue?

Second this. I've read this cited a number of times.

Less violent methods tend to fail. This therefore doesn't reflect the extent of the issue across genders.

So...what about the men who have never killed their partners? I'm guessing you think they're tickety-boo and don't need to talk about anything?

The vast majority of art, poetry and music has been created by men. It doesn’t seem like it’s always been true that men have problems talking about their emotions. Wordsworth wrote a vast long poem about them. I’m not sure when things changed, maybe late 19th century/imperialism, or twentieth century/mechanisation? Either way, it was at a period when men dominated government and that’s still the case, so I do think it’s up to them to solve, frankly.

I understand that the original comment was directed at violent men and yes, that kind of behaviour absolutely deserves condemnation. But when we’re talking about why men in general struggle to open up emotionally, responses that use sarcasm, even if aimed at the worst examples, tend to get heard as ‘men are the problem, full stop.’ That shuts the door on vulnerability for the many men who aren’t violent but do feel ashamed, afraid, or lost when it comes to expressing themselves. Mocking abusive behaviour and creating space for emotional honesty aren’t mutually exclusive but if we blur the lines too much, we risk reinforcing the very silence we claim to want to challenge.

This would be such an appropriate subject for Dadsnet.

Why don't men start groups and clubs to combat male loneliness and encourage emotional honesty the way women have, given they have all the money, power and often don't need childcare?

Hmm, it’s like a different part of the brain that can express that. Ex partner was a poet so wrote the most incredibly poignant pieces about love and the human condition, yet was completely ignorant to the reality of his own. Perhaps that’s ego getting in the way

I think this is a massive pile of bullshit sorry. You’re completely absolving men of any agency in solving their own problems, and placing all the responsibility on women who apparently mustn’t even criticise men who murder lest it hurts the feelings of men who don’t.

I think this is a really insightful take and I agree that a big part of the disconnect comes from the way men’s ’scripts’ haven’t evolved in step with women’s. The roles many men were socialised into haven’t been replaced with anything equally meaningful or culturally supported.

And you’re right - anger and blame can’t be the answer. But I also wonder if part of the issue is that many men don’t know how to express those feelings of dislocation without anger because emotional language or reflection hasn’t been modelled or encouraged for them.

That doesn’t excuse harmful behaviour, of course but I do think some of the clumsiness or blame we see is partly the result of trying to process loss and confusion without the tools. Like you said, it’s work they haven’t been taught to do and maybe haven’t wanted to either, especially when the rewards for doing so still feel unclear or undervalued.

I just find too many men self absorbed and uncaring of women’s issues really. Women are the opposite - can you imagine a male focused forum trying to start a compassionate thread about loneliness and the stigma some childfree and/ or single women face over a certain age? It’s all “teehee look at the cat lady” and “ who will look after them in their nursing home” - that’ll teach them to reject men who don’t give them the bare minimum!

I remember online dating while spending a long weekend in a foreign city a while back. I was asking this guy who asked me out for coffee a few questions. Nothing major - I didn’t ask for his second name or NI number! Just wanted to know how long he had been in the city for and a few other things.

He questioned why I asked so many questions. He said he didn’t require all that info from me.

I said but can’t you see it’s different for a woman? We are more vulnerable than men when meeting a stranger of the opposite sex.

He argued with me at length that wasn’t the case. And the country we were in had robust sentences for sex offenders so apparently that meant there was no issue for women anymore?! 🙄 I tried explaining it to him over and over again of the additional risks women face in the dating world let alone online dating but he just couldn’t get seem to get it.

In the end I just cancelled the date. He wasn’t necessarily being deliberately obnoxious but it was scary that he couldn’t comprehend or acknowledge women are more vulnerable in certain situations.

He’s probably the type of man who would hear a noise downstairs in the middle of the night and ask his wife to go check it out. But he’ll suddenly know what a woman’s job is when it comes to cooking and cleaning 👀

I couldn’t deal with that level of stupidity and selfishness.

Why do you say he was ignorant when he was expressing awareness in his poetry?

I think you’re right that men have historically expressed emotion through art, poetry and music in deep and complex ways. But I think there’s a distinction between creative output and interpersonal emotional openness.

Men like Wordsworth could write about longing or beauty or grief but that doesn’t necessarily mean they were encouraged to talk openly with friends, family or partners about their own emotional struggles. And in many male-dominated spaces (like government, business, sport, etc.), vulnerability still tends to be seen as weakness.

So yes, men need to be the ones to lead the change here. But I think recognising the difference between artistic expression and everyday emotional safety is part of understanding what needs shifting.

I think it's also important to disentangle "men aren't telling us what their issues are" and "I don't like the implications of what they are saying".

For example: dating apps & general modern sexual culture - it is well known that "sexual freedom" has led to an imbalanced dating market with hot guys sleeping with multiple women casually while most get nothing.

In the past when women had fewer options and consensus was to get married before sleeping together, more young men were able to settle down with a wife and make a life.

Obviously this came with some side effects, like shame for women who had sex outside of marriage, or being trapped in abusive relationships, or being pressured to marry etc.

But there's this dynamic where men will say - usually via some ironic meme rather than a confession in therapy - that they long for the world where you could be pretty confident you'd find a wife and have a nice life in the suburbs! And the response will either be (1) "so you want to bring back forced marriages" or (2) blank silence and "why won't men talk about their issues" - because we just refuse to acknowledge what was lost because we value too much what we gained

Men also need to understand that while women are “allowed” to express emotions more freely, they are also generally taught from a very young age to recognise others emotions, to comfort others and to prioritise other peoples feelings above their own. I’ve seen this in action as a mother. It’s not so much that females are encouraged to be emotionally open and healthy in themselves, they learn because there is an expectation that they will provide emotional support for other people and in the long game, be able to nurture their children and connect with them emotionally. We are socially conditioned this way and it’s a double edged sword. We are judged more harshly for expressing anger, for being selfish, for not sharing/ including peers, for not recognising others emotions, and providing support. Females in the same profession as males such as doctors are more likely to be criticised for not showing empathy/ compassion. Women are judged extremely harshly if they don’t adhere to a precise emotional script particularly when it comes to their children. Men do not get this in the same way. If a woman says she cannot form a bond with her own baby, she may well end up under psychiatric treatment. If a man says this? Completely different story.

Absolutely agree with this! I think men are more likely to seek role models than women. And if their own fathers are absent or useless, they look for them elsewhere. If there’s nobody available in their extended family or community, they will look to celebrities. I’ve known many men when they were younger absolutely idolise their male role models. Problem is now, male role models are people like Andrew Fucking Tate. Doesn’t help at all

Chiming in too, to say yes - that statistic about male suicide is often taken out of context and people fail to mention that women attempt it more.

They are just less “successful” for want of a better word due to their chosen methods.

Yes just as @TheGentleSwan put very well. Abstract sort of observations absolutely. But couldn’t apply that analysis to himself and our relationship. Would just shut down or go into a very angry bout of DARVO. Totally heartbreaking and confusing 🫤

I actually agree that more of these conversations should be happening in male spaces like Dadsnet and ideally, led by men for men. The lack of emotional community isn’t something women can or should be expected to fix.

But I think part of the issue is exactly what you’ve highlighted… for all the social power men hold, they often haven’t been socialised to build those kind of support networks. Women have had to build communities out of necessity and it’s become part of our cultural script. For men, emotional self-sufficiency was the script and unlearning that isn’t easy.

So yes, I fully agree… men need to start doing this work. But I think it helps if we stop treating male emotional struggles as either laughable or irrelevant. That doesn’t mean women picking up the burden - it just means we stop reflexively ridiculing the idea that there’s a real cultural gap here.

Always been the way, men are meant to be strong and un-emotional, if anything less so in recent times, a problem for men and women how much of their emotions they can or should show.

I was thinking exactly the same. I’m often baffled on here how close the mentality is to that what you hear about incels. The way “men” are labelled as all the same, all this and all that. It often feels like very little difference.

Absolutely agree. Women might be allowed to express certain emotions more openly but it’s often in service to others - nurturing, accommodating, tending - and as you said, that expectation is deeply socialised from a young age. It’s less about emotional freedom and more about emotional obligation, which is a whole other kind of pressure. And you’re spot on that women who don’t follow that script often face real judgement or even medical scrutiny, especially in maternal roles.

So in a way, both men and women are emotionally boxed in - just in very different ways. Men are often denied the tools or permission to connect inwardly, while women are handed those tools but told to use them for everyone else.

What I’m hoping for in raising this is not a competition of who has it worse but a wider cultural shift where emotional honesty - of all kinds - isn’t ridiculed, minimised, or gender-policed. Because the more rigid these emotional scripts are, the harder it becomes for any of us to relate to each other in healthy ways.

For example: dating apps & general modern sexual culture - it is well known that "sexual freedom" has led to an imbalanced dating market with hot guys sleeping with multiple women casually while most get nothing.

It’s really not that simple. This is something red pill podcasts claim often. But I know plenty of women, some very conventionally attractive, who have given all kinds of men a chance irl and online too. So many men, even ones considered average or less than average in terms of looks/money etc still treat women they meet online or irl very poorly given half the chance.

As someone who’s dabbled in online dating and haven’t really went on looks as I’m more concerned with personality/character, I’ve been disgusted with some things men have said . And not all of them have been “hot”. I think how can any man even think this will get them a date?

I know many other women have had far worse experiences than me as well. I remember when unsolicited dick pics were a widespread thing and it was just a thing women doing online dating had to tolerate.

Honestly so many men talk themselves out of relationships and sex and dates, because they can’t be civil and respectful for even one conversation.

Men did build support networks - how many poems have been written about the feeling of brotherhood/mateship they found in the army for example? Or fond memories of learning bushcraft in the Boy Scouts with their dads, or rugby tour with the lads, etc?

I see this discourse a lot online but I don't think its true. The men I know have absolutely no problem expressing their emotions, their opinions. And generally their opinions are listened to more, and they get away with much more "emotional" behaviour than women. If I raise my voice in a meeting I'll be accused of being unprofessionol or hysterical for example

I think the issue is actually men have difficulty rationalising and processing their emotions. I think some men struggle with the concept that their emotions aren't listened to by everyone, and people aren't pandering to their needs.

I also disagree with the idea that women are more able to discuss their emotions. Women's feelings are often dismissed, I work in a medical feild and one of the conditions I manage is a chronic pain condition exacerbated by stress. I see so many older women coming in, caring for multiple generations, on the edge of a breakdown, incredibly stressed and they are just expected to cope. They may tell me they are stressed but only after probing. No one is thinking about these women's feelings. None of their family members will give them a break, they frequently are carrying generations worth of problems

Men on the other hand will immediately say they are stressed, they bring their wives who have a list of their medical conditions, remember all their allergies, they don't remember. They will immediately cut back on what they are doing in the home, and often themselves.

Women, particularly older generations, have been raised with the concept that their feelings and opinions aren't important, I don't agree that women talk about their problems more than men. Perhaps the younger generations

I have no idea how incels come into this discussion, by identifying themselves as such they are a bit outside the pale and misogynists, not normal men struggling with their masculinity.

I know! Just when you think you've heard ALL of the stupid shit the Internet has to offer someone tries to gaslight women, those oppressed by patriarchy that men the beneficiaries of patriarchy are the true victims.

And no, men have absolutely zero trouble finding their voices.we hear their options on absolutely everything even mansplaining women's issues to women.

Having worked in male dominated environments they are also perfectly good at expressing emotion. I've had everything from a tough site manager telling me the day he married his wife was like winning the lottery. Another telling me about the traumatic birth he had just witnessed and how he had cried in the car. I've listened to male colleagues talk about how hard it is to deal with a parent with alzheimers and the emotional impact of that . I've had a burly engineer cry in my arms because his girlfriend was physically abusing him.

Men are just as emotional as women and just as capable of talking about it.

Focus does not need to be pulled away from the violence and hatred shown to women daily because some men can't say how they feel. In the US women don't even have bodily autonomy. We still don't have a world built for women's bodies, we don't have medical research dedicated to half the world's population. In Afghanistan women are basically prisoners. We don't have equal pay, equal responsibilities. We can't walk alone in complete safety. Rape convictions are comically low.

Women do not have anything like equity. Our needs are always pushed to the back.

There is no space for a coversation about poor old men at the moment. They need to wait, just like women have. Women are dying because of domestic violence every day, because men still do not see women as people.

And if you are a man and your answer to that is no, we can deal with mens issues too. Why haven't you been screaming the same about the issues women face daily? Why haven't you been going on men's forums and telling them they need to change?

We know why and it's because patriarchy benefits men.