Page 8 | Junior Doctors Unemployment in August part 2

PurpleFairyLights · 2025-06-03T20:02:35+00:00

Following on from previous thread. [[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5337022-junior-doctors-unemployment-in-august https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5337022-junior-doctors-unemployment-in-august?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share]]

Original poster

PurpleFairyLights · 18/06/2025 20:53

wannabewitch · 18/06/2025 20:39

Please find where I have said they are rubbish - I have said people may not be ready yet, suited to the speciality they want - but never said they were rubbish. Not everyone is ready to progress at the same rate.

We have an F2 at the moment - v intelligent, work hards, has ticked every portfolio box on paper he has done it
But he has zero empathy, has just about passable multi disciplinary team working skills, lacks a degree of physical co ordination and has little insight into his own limitations.

On mums criteria he should absolutely get the number he wants and progress.
Thtat would be a disaster for him, patient care and his colleagues
A number of us have taken a not insignficant amount of our own time to mentor, guide and suggest alternatives to what he wants, made opportunities for him in other departments. He did not listen and applied and failed to get a number. Last week he came to us and the penny has dropped and he was off visiting one of the departments we suggested and he would thrive in. That is what mentoring is about - helping people and guiding them when they can not always see the right path. So yes he faces unemployment by your criteria but actually has already been offered work - not a training job - in what he will excel in.

That is a success in my eyes but if he had been guaranteed a job everyone including him would be worse off. He is not alone and is why I will continue to contest some of you assertions.

Do you realise how insulting your post is?

Not only to the doctor you describe but to the 20,000 doctors that did not get a training post including my DC.

So 20000 doctors were not ready to progress to specialty training? And it is not because there were 60000 applicants for 12000 training posts? And that you have applicants that have been a doctor for 2 or 4 years in direct competition with IMGs that in most cases have been doctors for far longer?

OP posts:

mumsneedwine · 18/06/2025 20:55

@PurpleFairyLightsthis is why we are here. Doctors who just don’t care. Thankfully many do. Read the BMA response to the fiasco in Plymouth.

Original poster

PurpleFairyLights · 18/06/2025 20:56

wannabewitch · 18/06/2025 19:40

No one has ever said they are rubbish at their jobs - your claims ae becoming more histrionic

You have just described one of your junior colleagues in those terms.

Seems strange you are assessing their empathy when you have not really been empathetic to the resident doctors plight in August.

OP posts:

mumsneedwine · 18/06/2025 20:57

If they are a doctor I really hope I never have to be treated by them.

Original poster

PurpleFairyLights · 18/06/2025 21:04

mumsneedwine · 18/06/2025 20:55

@PurpleFairyLightsthis is why we are here. Doctors who just don’t care. Thankfully many do. Read the BMA response to the fiasco in Plymouth.

Sorry cannot find anything on that except about PAs

OP posts:

Original poster

PurpleFairyLights · 18/06/2025 21:09

oddandelsewhere · 18/06/2025 07:40

@PurpleFairyLights seriously, you need to stop this now. So much of what you say is rubbish and when anyone who holds a different opinion tries to explain anything you are relentlessly horrible.
In particular you seem to hate senior doctors (you pretend to doubt their credentials) and the least said about your attitude to any non British person the better.
You say you are worried about your children, but they are adults with university degrees. If they can't get the job they want they will have to do something else. Being worried is absolutely not an excuse for hitting out at anyone who you perceive as doing better than your offspring.
And please don't tell us yet again that they have student debt. All graduates do. Didn't you know that?

You seem to have put me into the "mummy" category but we are uses to that. I am very well informed. You wrongly assume that it is second hand knowledge from DC.

I am calling someone out as it is my belief that what they are saying does not add up also they are displaying a complete disregard for junior colleagues (if they are a doctor).

OP posts:

wannabewitch · 18/06/2025 21:11

OMG - no I have not - he is academically brilliant but the skill set to be a good doctor is so much more than ticking boxes and regurgitating the facts. He currently at this point in time, when he can progress - he lacks the "soft skills" which some people have in abundance. He is not rubbish but not cut out for a career that requires F2F discussion with a sentient human being. He is not ready to progress - this does not mean he is rubbish, just not ready right now and not suited to the job he thught he wanted.
My job as with many in the health service is to teach mentor and guide people as well as treat patients.

Mumsneedwine says if they have passed then he should by right of being a UK graduate be allowed to progress to the next stage. This is why I am saying your solution is flawed for some and use it as an example of why what you are asking for is not a good fix.

if directing him to look at alternatives, referring him for an assessment and him being ecstatic that his neurodiversity has finally been recognised and understood - then I and three of my colleagues are guilty of actually giving a shit and helping our resident doctors in a holistic manner.

Sorry purple you and mums are so blinded by any other solution or discussion than the one you push, you can not see when people do actually give a damn and go out of there way to help people.

Original poster

PurpleFairyLights · 18/06/2025 21:16

wannabewitch · 18/06/2025 21:11

OMG - no I have not - he is academically brilliant but the skill set to be a good doctor is so much more than ticking boxes and regurgitating the facts. He currently at this point in time, when he can progress - he lacks the "soft skills" which some people have in abundance. He is not rubbish but not cut out for a career that requires F2F discussion with a sentient human being. He is not ready to progress - this does not mean he is rubbish, just not ready right now and not suited to the job he thught he wanted.
My job as with many in the health service is to teach mentor and guide people as well as treat patients.

Mumsneedwine says if they have passed then he should by right of being a UK graduate be allowed to progress to the next stage. This is why I am saying your solution is flawed for some and use it as an example of why what you are asking for is not a good fix.

if directing him to look at alternatives, referring him for an assessment and him being ecstatic that his neurodiversity has finally been recognised and understood - then I and three of my colleagues are guilty of actually giving a shit and helping our resident doctors in a holistic manner.

Sorry purple you and mums are so blinded by any other solution or discussion than the one you push, you can not see when people do actually give a damn and go out of there way to help people.

Please explain why you think 60,000 applications for 12,000 posts is ok?

You are assuming you have more knowledge of the system on this thread which is a mistake on your part. My experience is not just because my DC is a doctor.

OP posts:

mumsneedwine · 18/06/2025 21:23

There is arrogance and then there is ignorance.

We must be wrong because they believe they are right. They ignore every other doctor who agrees with us. They make personal attacks because we will just not believe them. No evidence provided, when we have provided heaps. V v sad.

Original poster

PurpleFairyLights · 18/06/2025 21:27

W0tnow · 18/06/2025 08:19

I’m bemused at the multiple straw man arguments here. What exactly is it about prioritising UK doctors that people find so objectionable? Not “guaranteeing” every FY2 a training slot, but prioritising the citizens/grads of the uk for positions that they are qualified for?

This is why the thread was started. Then all the unpleasant stuff about doctors not being ready to progress, not good enough not from a good enough med school etc started.

UK medical graduates should take priority for specialty training in the UK. Just like 195 other countries do.

This opening up the NHS as the specialty training college of the world has led to 60,000 applications for 12,000 training posts. So our young doctors have a 1:5 chance of progressing in their career.

OP posts:

Truetoself · 18/06/2025 21:47

@wannabewitch if you don’t mind, are you able to answer my question on the unprecedented doctor unemployment?

The doctor you mentioned was lucky he had other options even though he didn’t get a training number. However the point of this thread is for too many, there is no plan b.

There isn’t any employment for them as a doctor anywhere in the country. Even stand alone posts.

Do you believe this to be not true?

I know that GPs are not resident doctors. Are you aware there are several cases of salaried GPs being made redundant? Do you remember this happening at any point in your career?

oddandelsewhere · 18/06/2025 21:48

Oh @mumsneedwine where do I start. You have been badgering me to tell you which are the best universities, I told you today where you can find them on a list published in Times Higher Education. You dismissed that as a 'league table'. If you won't accept that evidence then I'm afraid I can't help you, you obviously have some idiosyncratic list of preferences unknown to anyone else. As far as I know there isn't a league table for empathy.
As you might expect, the highest pass rates for postgraduate exams correlates with the top universities in the Times list.
So top 10 universities
Oxford
Cambridge
ICL
UCL
Edinburgh
UCL
Manchester
Bristol
Glasgow
Birmingham.

Universities with highest pass rates for the first part of the MRCS exams
Oxford
Cambridge
ICL
Edinburgh
Bristol
UCL
Nottingham
Birmingham
Cardiff
Leicester
Please note, I am categorically not calling anyone rubbish. I have simply told you which students are most likely to succeed long term.
It's quite surprising that yesterday you were telling me that your proteges think that Oxford is too old fashioned, yet today you are claiming to have sent 11 of them there last year. That's quite an odd thing to do, wouldn't you say?
I'm afraid I can't agree with you that getting 3 'a' passes at A level is pretty academic, given that about 25% of candidates get 3 'a or a. i.e. about 25% of people do better. The entrants to the top universities will have all a.
I haven't attacked or abused anyone, I have disagreed with you and you have been extremely rude and unpleasant.
I promise you haven't touched any nerve of mine, I have no skin in this game except having a regard for the truth.
I understand that you are very upset, but you are not doing your cause any good. I don't really know what you even think should happen, you haven't told us apart from not wanting IMGs. Do you have a solution to the problem apart from changing the law? (Which realistically won't happen)

Sevillian · 18/06/2025 21:54

wannabewitch · 16/06/2025 09:23

Ladies,
This is the third thread you have created on this subject and I think everyone agrees unemployed doctors are not a great idea for the country or them.

However, numerous senior medics have come on your threads and said just because you are a doctor does not give your the right to specialist training - some people do not succeed because they are felt not to be ready, have the right skills etc. But you shoot everyone down who dares to proffer an educated, knowledgable view point and will not debate.

No one has called our UK graduate doctors - dumbed down -so do not imply they have. People have said working less hours than previous generations means that at any given timepoint the current generation have had less exposure and hence less experience -that can not be disputed but that does not mean they are lesser doctors.

This thread ahs opened with a full frontal attack on IMGs - who from what you ae saying - all bought their way into medical school, some may have but the vast majority did not. That is so deeply offensive to the many hard working talented doctors around the world - who work just as hard as UK graduates without having a slur like that put on them.

Physician Associates - are people who worked hard to get a qualification and training that this country offers. They did not cheat their way into the roles, they are used throughout the world very successfully. For those of us who work with these individuals, there is the full spectrum of brilliant to bad - just like there is among IMGs and UK graduates.

We all get your view point but the vitriol that has spilled out on this 3rd thread diminishes your arguments and you embarrass yourselves. Have a fair discussion without the insults please.

Only on Page Two but thank you for this post.

Sevillian · 18/06/2025 22:05

wannabewitch · 16/06/2025 18:01

Just because you qualified as a doctor does not mean you should earn more than other allied health professionals with post graduate qualifications. That is disrespectful of the knowledge and skills that many part of the nhs workforce have and that teach many young doctors skills they need. FY1 pay is on a par with top Band 5 nurse ( min 5 yrs experience - lower end Band 6) I know who I want working along side on August 3rd. I want the Band 5, whilst I teach the FY1 and no - they are not the equivalent to the Band 5 nurse or an experienced PA when they start. Different but all will be equally valuable to the NHS.

That you rubbish anyone with a nutrition degree is symptomatic of your ignorance/arrogance of what makes the health service tick.

I get the situation - having sorted out a resident today with employment for the next 6 months. What I can not abide is your belief that every doctor deserves a specialist training post - much of your previous threads were about this - 12000 UK grads should get the 12000 jobs and all the shitty Trust grade jobs can be taken up by IMGS who have been integral to delivering health care to this nation for generations. These trust grade jobs were beneath UK grads.
Now you want all the IMGS to pass more exams, bugger off and make way for a UK grads.in those inferior Trust grade jobs.

You make such sweeping statements - many of which are simply wrong. You disrespect any opinion that does not conform with yours and your narrative.

I am a doctor, -although you spent much of the last thread saying I was not - MB BChir MSc x2, 2 post grad diplomas an MD says otherwise, I have been through the system, been spat at out different times because a new training regime came in, faced unemployment, been unemployed. worked out of the nhs, but what I do not agree with is that every UK medical graduate has a god given right to a job simply because they are UK doctors. Guaranteed jobs and no competition breeds complacency and ultimately lowers standards.

This was clearly evidenced by those who got run through training (that debacle affected me badly) those with run through made less effort and had less on their CVs at the end of the day because they did not need to try.

Unemployment is not good for anyone in any job be that bin man, dock worker, cleaner, cook, nurse, physio, doctor, lawyer. Doctors are another cog in the wheel of healthcare - not better, not superior but another vital cog in the system.

Thanks once again.

Original poster

PurpleFairyLights · 18/06/2025 22:11

oddandelsewhere · 18/06/2025 21:48

Oh @mumsneedwine where do I start. You have been badgering me to tell you which are the best universities, I told you today where you can find them on a list published in Times Higher Education. You dismissed that as a 'league table'. If you won't accept that evidence then I'm afraid I can't help you, you obviously have some idiosyncratic list of preferences unknown to anyone else. As far as I know there isn't a league table for empathy.
As you might expect, the highest pass rates for postgraduate exams correlates with the top universities in the Times list.
So top 10 universities
Oxford
Cambridge
ICL
UCL
Edinburgh
UCL
Manchester
Bristol
Glasgow
Birmingham.

Universities with highest pass rates for the first part of the MRCS exams
Oxford
Cambridge
ICL
Edinburgh
Bristol
UCL
Nottingham
Birmingham
Cardiff
Leicester
Please note, I am categorically not calling anyone rubbish. I have simply told you which students are most likely to succeed long term.
It's quite surprising that yesterday you were telling me that your proteges think that Oxford is too old fashioned, yet today you are claiming to have sent 11 of them there last year. That's quite an odd thing to do, wouldn't you say?
I'm afraid I can't agree with you that getting 3 'a' passes at A level is pretty academic, given that about 25% of candidates get 3 'a or a. i.e. about 25% of people do better. The entrants to the top universities will have all a.
I haven't attacked or abused anyone, I have disagreed with you and you have been extremely rude and unpleasant.
I promise you haven't touched any nerve of mine, I have no skin in this game except having a regard for the truth.
I understand that you are very upset, but you are not doing your cause any good. I don't really know what you even think should happen, you haven't told us apart from not wanting IMGs. Do you have a solution to the problem apart from changing the law? (Which realistically won't happen)

The information in the Times Education Supplement is a league tables of student satisfaction not an assessment in the way you seem to think.

We are upset that the NHS has become the specialty training organisation of the world. Started in 2019. So while our children were at medical school their future prospects were being destroyed by an inept government.Now there are 60,000 applications for 12,000 posts and virtually no trust grade jobs.

We want the situation to go back to what it was pre 2019 so that UK medical graduates take priority for training posts. This is not rocket science. 195 countries prioritise their own graduates. I have not found another country that does not prioritise its own graduates.

OP posts:

Truetoself · 18/06/2025 22:15

@wannabewitchI wonder where you get your views from? When I was a junior doc, I carried far more responsibility for patient care than the nurses who could always get away with saying “sorry I don’t have time” when asked for help, which is a reason that wasn’t available to me. Senior help was not as readily available as you imply. Maybe things have changed but not from what others say. And my experience is that as long as the allied health card professionals have informed the doctor, they feel absolved of all responsibility. Why does it look like we have experienced the NHS in a parallel universe?

mumsneedwine · 18/06/2025 22:20

One University got downgraded in the Times list because they bought new seats for the lecture theatres and students didn’t like the colour. Cost them 12 places. League tables are pointless. Money is involved too. Good to see the elitist London/Oxbridge snobbery finally unveiled. As always.

mumsneedwine · 18/06/2025 22:21

And not everyone wants to be a surgeon so what has the MRCS exam got to do with anything ?

mumsneedwine · 18/06/2025 22:23

I am ‘very upset’. Again the language of the misogynist. I’m angry not upset. That senior doctors have let their colleagues down so v v badly. But you are proving v well how this has happened. Lack of empathy and listening skills..

Sevillian · 18/06/2025 22:24

oddandelsewhere · 18/06/2025 10:11

@mumsneedwine I think it was me that you were paraphrasing. You should not do that, each time you do you twist the truth. I've asked you before to stop. I wasn't sneering at anyone. You think that you are stating facts. Many of them are only your facts. Here are some actual facts.

It's easy to find out which are the best medical schools. Look at the Times Higher Education list of best medical schools 2025. The ones at the top are outstanding, the ones in the middle good and the ones at the bottom not so much. Look at their scores for research, that's the best measure.

When there were very few medical schools it didn't matter which one you went to because they were all the same very high standard. Now with a proliferation of medical schools some are easier to get in to than others. I know it's not one of your truths, but prior attainment affects outcomes.

All a medical education promises is a degree and 2 years employment. This has always been the case. There was less unemployment amongst junior doctors when there were only half as many of them.

It's hard to fail a medical degree. But once they are out in the world sitting competitive exams along with every other junior doctor the ones from universities which are light on science and have less traditional teaching do worse. It's only natural that the ones who are statistically more likely to succeed in medicine get the training posts.

I don't think that your sense of entitlement or your tiresome offensiveness will get one more job. Your children are adults, they need to learn to navigate the system the way it is, improve their CV and apply for everything going. Also accept that they may not end up with a medical career.

Please don't tell me that every medical student is clever. They may be, but some are cleverer than others. The ones at the top medical schools will have far exceeded the minimum entry requirements.

If you want to be rude to me please quote me directly, your paraphrasing skills are very poor. Oddly you always seem to make me say something which I definitely did not.
And lay off @wannabewitch . She sounds like an example of the right way to go about having a very successful career. Having your pushy mum trying to get you a job isn't quite the same.

The data on prior attainment and outcomes was provided by Marchesman on your previous thread. You should read it.

Wonderful.

I'm not going to apologise for quoting these posts as I go along because they 100% bear repetition.

Such a refreshing thread.

mumsneedwine · 18/06/2025 22:26

So far I’m a hysterical upset mummie. I’m really hoping this ‘doctor’ is not a psychiatrist 😂

mumsneedwine · 18/06/2025 22:27

@Sevillian nice you’ve joined in. Another doctor who hates their residents ? It’s like BAPIO are sending out smoke signals. Believe what you want. The truth is easy to find.

Sevillian · 18/06/2025 22:30

Gosh I really do hope there isn't a plot twist before Page 8.

mumsneedwine · 18/06/2025 22:31

Why do you always have to resort to us just being parents. Do you find it hard to believe that we are also people with jobs which might mean we also have insight. Some are also medics themselves. Or is the misogynistic language because all mummies are just that, and we should get back in the kitchen.

Sevillian · 18/06/2025 22:31

oddandelsewhere · 18/06/2025 13:09

@Sommertidenhejhej honestly, how many people do you think get cured by empathy?

😂