Are we lying to our daughters?

[Granville1]

I would like to start by saying that my husband is a really good guy. A lovely, kind person & a doting dad. Yet here I am, a burnt out millennial 40 year old mum of two girls (age 4 & 6) feeling utterly overwhelmed & exhausted by life. My head is barely ever above water

My mum is one of those superwomen. Always has seamlessly held the family together by doing everything. The full mental load is on her, but she never complains. In fact she seems to thrive on it. She always worked but perhaps not in the same “career” sense that our generation do, so perhaps didn’t quite have that additional pressure

I have now fallen into the same role as her. Although both my husband & I work full time so no reason I should take it all on. He does earn more but I also have a decent, fairly well paid & highly stressful job. Sadly we don’t earn enough for any additional help (aside from a cleaner). Yet I have become so accustomed to doing everything, I’m now stuck in a trap where my husband is -25 years of practice down & no amount of explaining or “training” 😂 would get him even close to taking on what I do

But I can’t help thinking that we are teaching our daughters that taking on everything is the norm. And even more cynically, that marriage & kids is great. It’s not. There might be a handful of exceptions but most of my friend’s (admitting it to varying levels) are miserable as sin. And most of it comes down to utter resentment of them having to balance full time careers & pick up the vast majority of the mental load (as well as physically carrying it all out too)

What do we do? Show bad role modelling by continuing to do almost everything & them thinking that’s normal? Also do we lie & say marriage & having kids is great? Or (if asked) do we generally encourage open conversations that alternatives do exist. I would never go on an aggressive tirade telling them that all women take on too much & will end up even more miserable if they get married & have kids, but at the same time, they are learning from me that masking the misery of working full time / having a career & taking on everything is normal

Has anyone else had similar thoughts? What do we do about it? How do we break the cycle? Would welcome comments about the future of our daughters not judgement on whether my husband does / doesn’t do enough

Thanks for reading

My DH and I share everything and both work full time
That is what we model to our sons and daughter
No idea why some women take on so much

OP it will be difficult to change the dynamic in your relationship, if I was you I would start that process today

This is so true. My husband was brought up primarily by his dad, as his mum moved when they split, but the kids stayed with him, as it was easier for school. My dh has grown up seeing his dad do the lions share of parenting, so has taken on that role himself, and would do everything and anything for our children and is a pro at keeping the house up together (better than me for sure). I'm hoping that my girls will see this, and not expect any less from a partner (if they choose to marry and have kids). But women who except any less than 50/50 share of the load are only making it harder for the next generation of mums really. I'm lucky that my husband is obviously wired a bit differently anyway due to his upbringing, but if he wasn't, I certainly wouldn't expect any less and would have out firm boundaries down at the start of the relationship so he knew what was expected. Feel sometimes couples move in together, the woman "mothers" the man, (and probably enjoys it to some extent), then kids come along, mum takes on even more while on maternity, life gets stressful and expensive, so both end up working full time, and burnt out, but the man fails to take on anything extra around the house, as this has just become the norm, and they're stuck in this way of living that isn't fair or balanced. For example when my dc was 6 months old, I told dh it was his turn to do night feeds, as I'd done 6 months (breastfeeding) once she was on solids, I was happy for her to be given a bottle overnight if she woke, and that was down to dh. No complaints, he got on with it and we did the same with our second. Only fair.

Disagree with ’no amount of explaining or “training” would get him even close to taking on what I do’. He could do it all if he wanted. He would rather you did it.

This is the crux of it.

These men aren’t able, well-meaning and genuinely incompetent - it’s weaponised incompetence or demonstrating they don’t care as much as their partners so don’t prioritise the task, bother doing it well, or do it at all.

Before marriage and DC I thought he seemed to have good attitudes about equality, he shared all the domestics etc.

This is sadly a common theme. No wicked fairy waves her wand over them and turns them into sudden, inexplicable, selfish, clueless arseholes - their priorities change.

When you are a new/childless couple they are incentivised to pull their weight and spout equality platitudes that may or may not be genuine bc there is the promise of regular sex, fun times, and the risk of their partner walking out the relationship very easily. Once kids are involved it does alter things for the mother in that walking out the door isn’t as easy as it was before - and these men know and rely on this.

The ones PP’s have described as ‘almost’ ok on the shared roles front are usually not 50-50, and the women have said that getting there took a lot of hard work and or threatening to walk out - so they knew there was a risk if they carried on being selfish twats, just as there was a risk when they were younger or newly-together that the relationship they enjoyed (or worked for them) would end. They magically are able to step up. Just as they would if their boss told them they faced dismissal for not pulling their weight at work.

As others have said - they are capable adults - they prioritise and are able to do well the tasks that matter to them. Kids missing ballet or piano practise doesn’t affect them so they can be ok with forgetting to pay or drop them off. They would not forget mortgage or utility payments. Or subscriptions to their own activities. Mums usually do care and don’t want their kids to suffer so pick up slack and do it for them, as another PP
mentioned, even when she’d already walked out the relationship! She knew if she didn’t he wouldn’t, bc it didn’t matter to him. Same as having to write them fucking lists. Women aren’t born with a manual of how to raise kids imprinted on their brains - they learn or figure it out for themselves - same with looking after a joint house.

Why do these men need instructions?!!! They will not be being spoon-fed at work - they’ll be expected to show a modicum of initiative.

How they get away with treating their partners and their own kids as less important and not worthy of the effort…!!!

This!!

Sit your husband down and tell him in no uncertain terms how you feel like you are breaking.

If he’s a ‘great guy’ when he’s heard how his lack of action is impacting you he will step up.

If he’s doesn’t he’s a selfish bastard.

Your girls are young. If you don’t want to lie to them, make changes.

One more thing. If our kids or if we are ill, we can stay at home from work no questions asked. 120 days per child per year, if needed. The fathers stay at home with sick kids just as much as the mothers do.

Would welcome comments about the future of our daughters not judgement on whether my husband does / doesn’t do enough

Really?

So you know deep down your H is at fault but you want to try to make this a societal problem rather than own it as your relationship problem.

Your daughters' future is in your hands.

This isn't about what "we" are teaching our daughters, this isn't about what "society" thinks. This is about what "YOU" have accepted and what "YOU" are modelling to your daughters.

I'm a SAHM because that is what suits our family set up. I have one fabulous teenage daughter. She knows that if she wants nice things in the future that SHE needs to work hard for them and doesn't need a man to support her. She also sees that yes, whilst I don't work, her dad and I are a team. I do sort out appointments because it's me that will be taking her to them so it makes sense. However, my husband does most of the mental work on other things, like the household bills and booking holidays. Which also makes sense as the money comes out of his account. But also, she sees that when her dad is at home it's 50/50 on any job that needs doing. I obviously do the bulk of washing and things because as such that's my "job" during the day, but anything that needs doing evenings and weekends is done as a team. Same with parenting since the beginning, I did night feeds during the week so my husband could get good sleep because he was up early for work. But he did weekends so I could, there wasn't even any discussion about it, he just did it. Our house, our daughter, our responsibility. That was the way we started our relationship and I would not settle for less. If you have, that's on you not "we".

Have you analysed exactly what doing it all entails.
Sometimes you think you need to do X Y or Z but you really don’t

My DH had lived on his own till he was in his 40s when I met him.
He is nothing like the useless men many describe but he's only had to get used to sharing a house with me for 20 years and having DCs for 13 years. He's an equal partner because I married a grown up not a child.
I did have to disabuse him of the concept of the washing fairy but only once.
Other organisations still think I'm default parent but I just don't answer unless it's DD school and I'm home but he isn't (it's near our house). He's retired now but he did all the paperwork for school etc. even before he retired.
My main jobs that he doesn't do are activities (and my network of mums is bigger than his so I go off recommendations), dressing up days (last World Book Day now done but I sew and the DCs will still want Halloween costumes) and presents for my family (he has no family left so my job has always been bigger but I did help with presents for his DM).
We jointly deal with SEN stuff but I have a science PhD so read up the literature and if I can explain it to him I can explain it to a teacher.

It's so frequent that it must be societal, the crux of the issue is your husband isn't sharing the load, which isn't your load, it's the load of family life. Of course you won't enjoy it if you're burning out from the effortz which is vast while also having a career.

My husband is an example of a husband who does share the load, and will clean and tidy, do laundry without prompting, myriad little and big jobs that need doing etc. So there are some who are sharing the load, it's a shame its not more common. He has huge respect for his mum who raised her 5 kids with respect for others not necessarily just for their significant others, so it's carried down a generation for sure.

Generationally things are passed down by example, sometimes by copying what they saw ans sometimes by massively rejecting the example they grew up with. Usually it's the former however, so it's important to if not model what you want for your daughters, then talk to them about expecting an equal partner.

All you can do is tell your daughters that they do not have to do everything, they have choices and men are just as capable (some women would not agree with that, depends how fussy they are, I am not). People should encourage their sons to do domestic and life admin things too, mine does.

The chances are your daughters will know that anyway and be far more career orientated and feminist than you. It is normal now thank goodness.

I had to train my lovely husband but he got there in the end. The fact that I was pretty useless at housework and lax about domestic duties, apart from cooking which I was good at, and laundry, helped. He cooked a fair bit, enjoyed it and actually liked buying groceries, I hate shopping.

My son does all of that, to his own standard but pretty good.

I always worked, didn't have a career/profession as such but managed to carve out a half decent career later on when I went to work full time. My income was always very useful indeed even when working part-time, I don't know how we would have managed without it, frankly.

Your girls will be fine, they have you as their mother and you can all chivvy your husband along a bit, he'll get there.

You would be covered by my 'not all' category. My observation wasn't that this is all people all the time. It's just overall on average what I saw. Of course many families are not like that and it's not rare, lots of families achieve this. But it also wasn't the most common scenario I came across.

But I find mumsnet tends to lean towards families where it's equal as in your post, giving the impressiin this is the most common scenario. but my real life observation tends to lean towards it not being equal. On average.

I also know some schools default to mum whatever was put on the form which us annoying as hell. We did not do this as we were all working mums ourselves.

A ‘good guy’ would never tolerate this situation. It’s appallingly unfair, and it has to stop. Talk about it with your husband. Tell him if things don’t change, you will stop doing anything for him (cooking, washing, anything to do with his family), and if this doesn’t produce change, you will leave. And mean it. That’s setting good expectations for your daughters.

Do less. Ok some things are essential, meals, clean loos etc, but don’t make a martyr of yourself. Life is too short

kindly OP you are doing this to yourself. I magine if your DH went to work and he was told at work "you have to learn to do this new thing because its part of your job". He'd learn fast enough! He'd maybe make mistakes but he'd learn. He wouldn't be let off by someone at work saying "oh that's not right, I'll do it myself" I also think as someone who took on most of the home admin because of my late husbands job (our choice, I don't regret a SECOND of it) none of it is individually difficult, its just there is a lot of it. I think unless he is going to weaponise his incompetence then the "no amount of training or explaining" line is either plain not correct, or there is some other reason why you won't (don't want to) do it. I mean have you actually talked to him about sharing the load?

I’ve advised my daughter to choose a career that allows part time or can return to work after a break …. If she chooses to have children.
Stressed that she needs to be financially independent before having kids, needs to always be able to work.

Have not discussed housework …

It's not so much about what we tell our daughters, it's about how we raise our sons.

Posts like this blow my mind and are why we will never close any gender gap in society.

My DH takes on probably 60% of the home load, because I have The Big Important Job. I look after anything financial or paper based (insurance and appointments, for example) and he does everything else (cooking, food shops, cleaning, replacing or fixing broken and worn out things).

If women continue to assume that only they can do the things and therefore need to work part time or not fully commit to their careers, then they really need to check their internalised misogyny.

Both men and women are capable of being the higher earner. Both men and women are capable of keeping a home. I do think a household benefits from one person prioritising one of these things, but women if you want the career - find a man who will be the one that prioritises the home. I honesty think most of the kind, lovely, fair, supporting husbands out there would do that if you trusted them with it and made the parameters of each others responsibilities clear.

I think the men doing an "equal share" before kids, get praised so much by everyone and society in general once they have kids, that they rest on their laurels!

DH was great in the first 4 weeks we had baby DS. Then everyone told him how amazing he was and how most men don't do anywhere near that, so he patted himself on the back and massively reduced his input. He tells me regularly how brilliant he is and how involved he is, and our whole local community tells me how lucky I am. I do all the mental load. That baby is now 9. And talking to 2 friends recently, they said exactly the same. So we thought we were having kids on an equal footing, but it didn't last and yet our husbands think they are marvellous.

If I try to hold him to account, e.g. when he's yet again forgotten to pay for the one activity he does with them, or sent them to wraparound care on the wrong day when it's the same every week, the kids tell me to not be mean to daddy, he's amazing...

Single households without children. Men and women.

Our daughters have to make sure they're self-sufficient whatever happens. What else are we going to tell them?

In our household this changed during covid. My husband was working from home. I was a ‘key worker’ going to work outside the home. Since then he’s been at home c.60-80% of the time. He has taken on the laundry. At first he shrank things. He still puts things in the wrong pile after washing them. But it’s his job, not mine. I’ve barely done any laundry for years now and the lifting of that one burden has made a huge difference. He has always helped with loading the dishwasher and washing up. The rest is still largely me. Try agreeing a specific task that can be his responsibility.

Dear @Granville1
This is an interesting post and I sympathise.
I am a completely lone parent and worked a big job for 20 years whilst DC growing up.
I totally recognise the exhaustion of trying to do it all and how hard it is to try to raise a family, run a home and hold down a demanding job. I see a lot of mental exhaustion in my younger colleagues and for me too, it has been worse in the last 8 yrs than in the 00s when my job and child were actually more full on.

Ive been thinking why that is as I see it at work all the time.

These days technology allows us to do most things ourselves so our brains never have time to relax.
we book our own holidays; do our own banking; compile our own tv schedules in the evening; answer emails; are constantly contacted by friends/ businesses on different communication channels/ all school communication is digital/ homework apps need monitoring and on it goes.

We are overwhelmed by choice and micro decisions on a daily basis.

I absolute realise a lot of these inventions save us time and are fantastic, but the time we save using this tech is then spent doing something else on the tech.
I don’t think our brains have quite evolved to keep up with the speed they need to work at to match the tech!
We are also distracted by “stuff” on our phones every time we go on them to do a task. Even a 2 hour a day phone use habit is 2 hours that may have been better spent relaxing, chatting to a friend in real life, cooking a meal, doing a hobby.
I do think that the Gen alpha will be more unphased by this and won’t know any different but currently I see even Gen Z colleagues at work struggle with the amount of life admin that needs doing on top of their work. Everything just seems to involve logging in to something and doing the task myself.

40 with young kids is peak tiredness age - but also a great stage of life!!
I hope you can find ways to rest @Granville1 and switch off in order to recuperate …
Having a career and being a mum is brilliant and a great example to your daughters that they can work and be free from needing the support of a man.
The home/ house/ life admin are the places to cut back, share more , let things go and carve out the time you need for you xx

this. bloody this.

Are you advising your sons to choose a career they can work at part time if he has children?