Are we lying to our daughters?

[Granville1]

I would like to start by saying that my husband is a really good guy. A lovely, kind person & a doting dad. Yet here I am, a burnt out millennial 40 year old mum of two girls (age 4 & 6) feeling utterly overwhelmed & exhausted by life. My head is barely ever above water

My mum is one of those superwomen. Always has seamlessly held the family together by doing everything. The full mental load is on her, but she never complains. In fact she seems to thrive on it. She always worked but perhaps not in the same “career” sense that our generation do, so perhaps didn’t quite have that additional pressure

I have now fallen into the same role as her. Although both my husband & I work full time so no reason I should take it all on. He does earn more but I also have a decent, fairly well paid & highly stressful job. Sadly we don’t earn enough for any additional help (aside from a cleaner). Yet I have become so accustomed to doing everything, I’m now stuck in a trap where my husband is -25 years of practice down & no amount of explaining or “training” 😂 would get him even close to taking on what I do

But I can’t help thinking that we are teaching our daughters that taking on everything is the norm. And even more cynically, that marriage & kids is great. It’s not. There might be a handful of exceptions but most of my friend’s (admitting it to varying levels) are miserable as sin. And most of it comes down to utter resentment of them having to balance full time careers & pick up the vast majority of the mental load (as well as physically carrying it all out too)

What do we do? Show bad role modelling by continuing to do almost everything & them thinking that’s normal? Also do we lie & say marriage & having kids is great? Or (if asked) do we generally encourage open conversations that alternatives do exist. I would never go on an aggressive tirade telling them that all women take on too much & will end up even more miserable if they get married & have kids, but at the same time, they are learning from me that masking the misery of working full time / having a career & taking on everything is normal

Has anyone else had similar thoughts? What do we do about it? How do we break the cycle? Would welcome comments about the future of our daughters not judgement on whether my husband does / doesn’t do enough

Thanks for reading

I found your thread really interesting.

I am of your Mum's generation and my kids (son and daughter) are close to your age and I'm late 60s.

They have far more egalitarian relationships than you describe. They (the men) do 50% or more of the cooking, share the cleaning, and they shop together or each separately.

I think you need to start insisting your H does more.
Set out a list of chores, divide them up bearing in mind your own work commitments and take it from there.

My DD has children and she and her H divide it all equally.

My marriage was different. I worked p/t for years (15-20 hrs a week in a professional role) and H was overseas with his work a lot. I did the lion's share of all the domestic stuff.
I did resent it , yes, but it would have been unfair for him to be working a 60 hr week plus overseas trips cutting into our weekends and then having to do the hoovering.

Get your act together!

I’m sorry, but I don’t buy the “no amount of explaining or “training” 😂 would get him even close to taking on what I do”

Did you learn the childcare/domestic labour overnight? You learned from doing it repeatedly day in, day out.

Even if he only gets up to 60% of your standard then surely that’s something? I think you taking over and doing it is part of the problem. If you want a partner you have to relinquish some control, accept some things might not be done your way and even sometimes go wrong, but it’s part of your DH learning to pull his weight.
When you get someone new at work, do you go “oh I’ve been in this job 10 years and like my way of doing it so there’s no point training them or letting them take things on themselves in their own way?” No. That would make you unbearable.
It’s no different here.

I probably do 60-70% of the childcare in my relationship as that’s the way it goes with our working hours, but DH pulls his weight with the rest of it and probably does something like 80% of the housework. Would I do the laundry slightly differently or spend more time doing one thing than another, yes! Of course. But I don’t want to be burnt out and miserable the way you describe, so there’s nothing else for it. I have to relinquish some control of the domestic sphere if I want a PARTNER, not another child.

Why are you so afraid to get your DH helping more? You say he’s a good man then surely he should jump at the chance to contribute more. IME good men love to feel valued and like they are needed and jump at the chance to help, but they do often have to be asked first. He probably just thinks that because you do it and don’t ask for help then you’re fine. If that’s not the case then you have a responsibility to communicate that and tell him exactly what you need and then to back off and let him get on with it. If he doesn’t do those things or refuses to then that’s a different argument altogether and maybe he isn’t the “good man” you describe.

In a similar situation as you OP except I am the main earner in my household. My husband is a nice man but he has no get up and go and beyond his monthly contribution towards bills and the mortgage I literally pay for everything else. School uniform, school dinners, any school trips, the cats food, pet insurance etc, kids clothes, piano lessons and any other activities, holidays (unless he treats us to the occasional week away in Cornwall - which means he has to take out a loan to pay for it which then takes him a year to pay off). My job is REALLY stressful and I feel that all the mental load is on me. The only reason I keep going is for the sake of the children and giving them a nice life. Writing it down on here and reading it back really makes me realise how unbalanced it is. I feel trapped. Sorry to derail your thread but it reasonates with me.

Women who do more than their share of mental load and chores are nuts. Just why?

my husband is a really good guy. A lovely, kind person & a doting dad.

No he’s not. He’s perfectly content to see you struggle, burn out, and be unhappy. That’s not the actions of a really good guy.

You’re just talking nonsense now.
In Sweden 34% of all households with children are single mothers, in the UK it’s around 25% of households.
In the UK benefits for single parents with young children are actually incredibly generous. It’s incredibly unlikely they wouldn’t be able to afford food.

I would love to know how you’re backing up your claim that SAHMs are always the ones to get divorced and end up single?

Very strange to go on this rant about SAHMs anyway considering the OP works full time and has an objectively shit relationship and family life.

Oh god OP I feel your pain! I love my partner very much and he’s great with our 9 month old twins, did night feeds when they were smaller and still waking in the night, will happily look after them for the day so I can pop out and have a break, he’s also a good cook and always happy to do that. But with housework and the general ‘drudgery’ not so organised! Every week I clean without even really thinking about it as it’s just what you do, and tidy and clean as I go along throughout the day…he doesn’t do this!
when I’m back at work I’m going to have to write him a list of chores to get on with when he’s at home with the twins (he will be with them 2 days a week while I’m working). Annoying having to delegate but it’s the only way!

Stop making excuses for allowing these men to be fucking lazy.

HRTFT but I agree with OP. For me it’s not as simple as saying ‘just let it fall to him’ because in that situation, the one to really suffer would be the dc- if her father doesn’t take enough interest in whatever it is, then it doesn’t happen and she misses out. I don’t want her to miss out so I pick up the slack.
in our house I am interested in eating well but OH isn’t and so while he does compromise a bit by adding spinach or broccoli to meals, he doesn’t like to cook or meal plan and so he doesn’t do it. When he lived alone he bought and ate the same food basically every day (I know).

Part of it I think is the way men and women are/were brought up- women as girls always asked to consider other people, and boys not so much. Boys also looked after more with people saying things like, boys will be boys and girls mature faster than boys, and using those phrases as reasons to excuse the boys and support them. Not all homes, obviously, but I have seen it with my friends and relatives kids, and in classrooms as well as in the wider world. Younger sisters being asked to fetch their brother’s shoes because he’s off playing and ignoring instructions to get ready, that sort of thing. Girls used as behaviour support for boys, girls hugging the edges of the playground while the boys run around the whole of the space. Men starting football games on a beach or in a park which never consider the women and children also using the space, who are then subject to balls landing among them or near them and men charging past with no regard for their space.

There has been research on use of public spaces and it’s overwhelmingly the males who dominate it, and women who make way.

I am probably older than you, late 50s, my DDs are in their 20s what I will say is I think and I am still very guilty of this, is as time has moved on we are all much more imvested in our children's life, providng emtional support and advice. I think this has been slowly envolving since I was young in the 70s and to be honest it is the metal load that kills me, DH is great aruond the house. I guess we are also supporting children who now seem to have more noise etc in their life compared to us if that makes sense.
I went to school, uni, had a fab career, a career break, carer for my kids and my parents (I was a late baby), a non career job and now have returned to my career, I feel I have done it and have the t-shirt for many roles in my life.
My parents were wonderfully supportive, I did an engineering degree in the 80s, I never thought twice about doing it nor did my parents who were obviously of the older genration, they probably worried about me but left me to find my own way and make my choices/mistakes.
For me with my DDs there seems so much "stuff" going on around them and now everybody is more aware of life due to social and like many women I am a "fixer" and unlike my mum I seem to know more about what the DDs are going through, I worry (a lot), both my parents have passed away, my husband seems better at not worrying unlike me, my mum used to say if worrying was a olympic sport I would be a gold medal winner, it is draining and I often feeled fried.
What I am trying to do with my DDs is say you can have everything but probably not all at once and not all the time, really trying to learn, use and impart to them the "Let Them" theory....I am a work in progress.

I think lots of women even today think that the jobs are "theirs" many of us marry and expect psychogically to be "running a home" .This was different when women married in the 60s and 70s. However not quite the same now!( My Aunt married in the mid 60s .She was expected to go PT at least, and there was some surprise she wouldnt be "giving up her job"! I would say your DH may need a "reset"They can learn if they have to.My own DH did what he thought was "half" but soon learned it wasnt ,when I had Cancer/Chemo last year!He would call for help ,sadly so tired I couldnt bloody move .So had to learn fast.9 months on ,can load WM and TD ,hoover (TBF always did this) and meal prep .Obv this is drastic ,and heaven forbid you become ill.Standards may slip but so what.Also its a mistake to compare yourself to DM,Everyone is different and DM may have felt tired you dont know.My own DGM co parented me .and in her 60s had a PT job as a tea lady and take me to work with her!,Looked after me at WE and Wednesday evenings ,did all HW (DGF would wash up at Christmas! )and seemed to be inexhaustible .By contrast I have often felt tired , and found it hard going.DD may stay single or perhaps not work or work PT with DP who will share the load

I made sure nursery have both our email addresses and send all communication to both of us and yes he will fill out forms and yes if the nursery says we need more sunscreen or her wellies needs replaced he will do that.

The best thing we ever did was to have my DH look after our kids for one or two full days each week when I went back to work after mat leave. Having a paid full period of paternity leave not interchangeable with maternity leave would make a huge inroad into this issue.

It sucks. I think the only way to avoid this is if you are a Lesbian or never live with a man.

Mine does (did - they're adults now) the mental load. Probably better than I did tbh. When he went away with work he had to leave me a list of which of our 4 children needed to be at what activity and when.

This was all while both building careers - I did two degrees in 10 years and I couldn't have done that without him doing at least 50% of all the housework stuff and the majority of the mental load stuff.

I don’t really have time now, but it’s just a different way of living. Things I read on here just would not be accepted, even my 80-year old dad would not understand why he shouldn’t have to do the same things as my mum.
I know a lot of British men here, with family and young children. And they are also living in equal healthy relationship. So I don’t know why it is like it is in the UK with useless men.

And regarding the additional help many are talking about, I don’t know anyone who has a cleaner here apart from very elderly people.

As some PPs have implied, it's possible to bring up daughters to demand equity from their men, even within an old-fashioned relationship. We somehow managed that with our daughters, even while their father was always the primary bread-winner and their mother did most of the traditional wife-work, at least before children left home.

Our daughters picked their men partners carefully and wisely. Furthermore, noticing how sons-in-law are required to shoulder the burdens helped us sort out sharing housework etc. in retirement.

Takes thought, work ... and, dare I say it, love. Don't despair!

[Still lots to do re. society, particularly in Britain. Legally, sociologically, psychologically; lots of work needed. Sad to say that - thought it'd be more settled by now, but no. Daughters who take no shit will help. We can but hope anyway.]

You’ve got to change your mindset. Do you think you’re ’happy to look after them for a day’ when he goes out or is it just a continuation of normal parenting?

Another way would be to dump his ass because he's really not a great partner or human being.

I think a year's maternity leave is a huge part of the problem - it normalises the woman doing it all and this then just continues when back at work.

This is inherently unfair. However i do believe there are many women in your situation. I think you need to sit down in a non accusatory way to decide who does what. You both need to.come up with a list of things that need doing. Once this is done produce a master list of who does what. You will both have to accept, in my opinion, that tasks may not be done to your standard, but that's ok.

Your oldest child is only 6! Your husband doesn't have 25 years of not doing child related things to get over - he has literally six years, all of it while with you. It's so frustrating to read stuff like this where someone is acting like it's an impossible task that can't be fixed - sit down with your husband and agree what jobs he's in charge of if he's no good at pitching in as and when.

Unfortunately too many women are their own worst enemy as they wrongly believe that only they can do parenting and running the home correctly. No wonder men don’t bother when they are criticised for the way they do things. I have zero sympathy for women acting like this.
Both men and women are equally capable of parenting and running the home - they may do it differently but not wrong.

So why don’t men and women share maternity leave in the UK? Why is it not normal to do that?

I think women are their own worst enemy a lot of the time.

Parenting today involves a lot of superfluous things which add a lot of pressure. The “making memories” things - elf on a shelf, Christmas Eve boxes, valentines/halloween/etc experiences. Kids’ birthday parties are very involved (& expensive).

Turning all these events into the perfect experience is mostly perpetuated by women. In my experience, most men don’t care to the degree that women do - and since it’s not a priority to them, they dont share in the burden and it falls to the women.

There’s also been a trend to more involved parenting. Which I think is good in general but the requirements for parents from school and everywhere is so much more than when I was growing up.

Things that tip me over the edge are the constant requests from schools for world book day, costume days, “homework” which are craft projects that need parents to help and the several performances each term that need this & that.

in short - everything to do with kids seems to have become such a production that needs investment and involvement from parents.