Are we lying to our daughters?

[Granville1]

I would like to start by saying that my husband is a really good guy. A lovely, kind person & a doting dad. Yet here I am, a burnt out millennial 40 year old mum of two girls (age 4 & 6) feeling utterly overwhelmed & exhausted by life. My head is barely ever above water

My mum is one of those superwomen. Always has seamlessly held the family together by doing everything. The full mental load is on her, but she never complains. In fact she seems to thrive on it. She always worked but perhaps not in the same “career” sense that our generation do, so perhaps didn’t quite have that additional pressure

I have now fallen into the same role as her. Although both my husband & I work full time so no reason I should take it all on. He does earn more but I also have a decent, fairly well paid & highly stressful job. Sadly we don’t earn enough for any additional help (aside from a cleaner). Yet I have become so accustomed to doing everything, I’m now stuck in a trap where my husband is -25 years of practice down & no amount of explaining or “training” 😂 would get him even close to taking on what I do

But I can’t help thinking that we are teaching our daughters that taking on everything is the norm. And even more cynically, that marriage & kids is great. It’s not. There might be a handful of exceptions but most of my friend’s (admitting it to varying levels) are miserable as sin. And most of it comes down to utter resentment of them having to balance full time careers & pick up the vast majority of the mental load (as well as physically carrying it all out too)

What do we do? Show bad role modelling by continuing to do almost everything & them thinking that’s normal? Also do we lie & say marriage & having kids is great? Or (if asked) do we generally encourage open conversations that alternatives do exist. I would never go on an aggressive tirade telling them that all women take on too much & will end up even more miserable if they get married & have kids, but at the same time, they are learning from me that masking the misery of working full time / having a career & taking on everything is normal

Has anyone else had similar thoughts? What do we do about it? How do we break the cycle? Would welcome comments about the future of our daughters not judgement on whether my husband does / doesn’t do enough

Thanks for reading

This post has moved me to tears!
Thank you Zebra.

Interesting thread OP. I have been thinking about this myself often. I think you need to role model the behaviour and expectations you want for your own daughters and teach them young what to look out for in a partner

I think "we" need to teach our dds not to settle and to choose their life partners very carefully. Obviously, that's a bit easier if you have chosen to start a family with someone who pulls their weight, because the dc then see a fair division of labour modelled in the home, and they will assume that that's the norm/set their own standards accordingly. If you have a partner that won't pull his weight, you're going to have to work quite a lot harder to get the message across, but it can be done.

I absolutely don't think you should be teaching your dc that life is shit and women are doomed to be miserable, because that is not the case. However, they do need to learn that the choices which they make will affect the quality of the life that they end up living.

My dh does lots of things but doesn't equally share the load because the load of modern life is too much and growing up he was not conditioned to do it all and put everyone else first whereas I was. When I was growing up in the 80's most women I knew where housewives with very high standards, lots of judgement of women who fell short "look at the colour of her net curtains, isn't it shameful" etc. I was also very much given the role of mothers helper when my own dm had more children in a second relationship so I became the cleaner and the cook, she had married a very lazy man. It's hard for me now when dh says "it doesn't matter if it's a but messy" or there are crumbs on the work top or the washing bins are overflowing. He is able to walk away from those things and go and prioritise his needs like going to the gym. He is happy feed things which I don't consider a meal to the kids. I have a lot of internal pressure to make things perfect, I'm trying to career woman and a perfect 80's housewife and I cannot get past the idea that other people will judge me and my own internal standards mean I can't stand living in a hovel. I've tried over the years and I just cannot leave it, I am my own worst enemy.

I’m now stuck in a trap where my husband is -25 years of practice down & no amount of explaining or “training” 😂 would get him even close to taking on what I do
But I can’t help thinking that we are teaching our daughters that taking on everything is the norm.

”We” are not but you absolutely are. Why are you explaining away any reason for your DH to be a competent adult and an invoked father. Your children are 4 & 6 why in earth is it too late for him to step up and be equally involved with their care and the running of the home?

My husband and I both work FT but this post is not my life. We both have fairly equal role in the home, all be it focusing on different things usually.

There might be a handful of exceptions but most of my friend’s (admitting it to varying levels) are miserable as sin

This is depressing, it sounds like misery loves company.

Your H is 25. years out of practice? You are not talking about medical practice here. He’s not a surgeon who hasn’t operated for 25 years. You are talking about doing hovering and cleaning. He doesn’t need ‘practice’. He just needs to get on with it. He already has planning and organization skills from his well paid job. They can transfer over.

And I’m sick of women calling men ‘a good man, he really is’ when they let their wives burn out from over work.

Tell him clearly you are burnt out and he had to step up or step out of the family home. Stop rewarding his selfishness with love and praise for being ‘a good man’ . Of course he is not changing when you reward him for the status quo. Why would he? The status quo is working brilliantly for him.

If he doesn’t, stop covering for him to your daughters. Tell them clearly what impact their Father’s selfish prioritization of himself has on you. Start their learning now. Or they’ll drift into it like you did. (Edit: just re read that they are only 4 and 6, your time of helplessness made me think they were teens. They are so young don’t tell them Dad is crap, but jeez, OP, tell him to get his finger out of his arse. Of course he can learn. And if he doesn’t, realise that he is not a good Un after all and leave).

You present yourself like some helpless victim to circumstance, and portray your H pretty much the same. Stop that.

And stop normalizing your home situation with this ‘we’ crap. It’s not an all women problem. It’s a you problem. It’s a your H problem. It’s him being a selfish dick and you rewarding him for being a selfish dick problem. Change that and change the situation. And if it doesn’t change, be prepared to walk.

I left my husband who was like that. I think I’d have hurt myself if I’d have stayed.
my grown up daughters know what he was like and and I’ve been honest with them about what marriage can be like especially if you have kids.
Both of them are in relationships and don’t run around after the men and don’t know if they ever want kids.

This, you have a partner problem not a blame everyone one or this 'it is society' fault

The best lesson a child has is the environment they grow up in

I mean this kindly, but that is what you and your husband are teaching your girls, and yes many in society. It doesn’t have to be that way, and I certainly wouldn’t want to teach my DD or DS that.

From the start I have expected my partner pulls his weight, before we had kids, then when we had them we did shared parental leave and both changed our work to condensed 4 day working weeks. This way my career didn’t suffer and we both had bonding time with our kids - but this takes sacrifice - I had to sacrifice some mat leave and he had to do something some men wouldn’t be prepared to do.

Yes, it’s not perfect, and in some areas I did more, like breast feeding he obviously couldn’t do, but then he picked up more in other areas. Over time he’s picked up the mental load side of things, initially I created a shared list and we divided up things, but he’s since taken the initiative. I still
probably do 60% here, but it’s much better than me doing it all.

You need to talk to your DH and start splitting things - he’s a grown man and no reason why he can’t be an active part of your family - otherwise what is the point in being with him?

@Badgerandfox227 excellent points.

Agree with people staying breaking the cycle starts with you. Dh and I both work full time and do about 50% of the jobs. Dh probably does more than me in reality. He doesn't help, doesn't have assigned jobs, he knows what needs doing and when.

Yesterday I went out with friends so he put away the stuff on the line, did 3 loads of washing that had built up on holiday, walked the dog, did taxi service for dd and cooked dinner. I asked if he'd like me to chop some veg but he just asked me to chat. I cleaned up afterwards but as we have a dishwasher it wasn't hard!

To get to this point I have had to let him know that if he didn't step up I'd be leaving and issue a few reminders about what needs doing when but my rule is that unless it needs a vagina it's a shared task. He's currently unloading the dishwasher and making me coffee while I mn. Just say no, and mean it!

My DH didn't naturally do his fair share at home when we first had kids, partly because he worked long hours and partly because I wanted to be there for everything initially as I'd waited a long time to be a parent.

But over the years that changed. He began to work from home, so he was there for school runs on days I worked. And for medical appointments etc. Gradually did more of the cooking etc. The fathers of many families at the kids school were equally involved - some I knew better than their wives/ partners as I saw them more often on the days I did the school run , this was 10 to 15 or more years ago.

The only thing he's never been great at is cleaning - I still have to point things out to him, but he does a lot of DIY (not that I don't). He'd certainly come across as an equally involved father and my kids are used to him being more available than me during the week.

You sound very defeatist and long suffering OP. If you keep doing what you are doing, nothing will change. You need to make sure your DH does what he can and that you have time for yourself. It's not about societal trends or consoling yourself that your friends are suffering equally - take charge of your life.

I teach my DDs by holding DH to account. Because he wouldn't be a good dad or husband if he was dropping everything on me anyway. It's hard fucking work and double the mental pressure having to explain everything to DH but DDs need to see that everything is not my job.

This is such a depressing post.

Surely, we should be teaching women to choose their partners more wisely rather than just accepting that they will need to give up on their own aspirations.

I hear you.

It’s the feminist stuff, including: ‘the personal is political’.

My mum had these conversations with me, eg that motherhood, work and heterosexual marriage with DC isn’t a picnic. My father did a lot relative to other fathers, but not what she did.

Your H isn’t great. Mine isn’t either, though he thinks he is! He does more than almost all the other fathers I know, but nowhere near what I do. He becomes angry and unpleasant if I raise this or he has to do parenting-related things he finds inconvenient/ unpleasant/interfere with work or social things. I still don’t give up.

Before marriage and DC I thought he seemed to have good attitudes about equality, he shared all the domestics etc. Having DC and realising his actual attitudes and priorities was and still is difficult.

Disagree with ’no amount of explaining or “training” would get him even close to taking on what I do’. He could do it all if he wanted. He would rather you did it.

How do we break the cycle without criticising your husband? Can't answer that one because this isn't a problem caused by women doing too much; it's a problem caused by men not doing enough.

And don't kid yourself that it's all men. It might be lots, but it definitely isn't all.

My husband is 72 and was raised in a very traditional migrant family. However, for the last 30+ years he's managed to identify what needs to be done in our house and get on with it. Whether it's hoovering, cleaning the toilet, loading the dishwasher, whatever.
So it's perfectly manageable for the average man to actively contribute to the successful running of a household. Many men do, so you'll need to ask why some men don't, OP.

I agree with the others, you need to talk with your husband and get things evened out.

I assume he’s intelligent enough to hold down a decent job- if so he 100% knows that he’s onto a good thing and you’re working full time and doing everything else. If he genuinely loved and respected you he wouldn’t just sit by and watch you do everything.

What does you DH think? I used to do it all but gradually pushed as much as I could onto DH. We have 4 kids between us so I’d just do 4 lots of paperwork. I taught the kids and him to do it at the same time. The kids learnt to fill in paperwork pretty young to be fair.
im still the washing fairy.
But if I’m away I prepare absolutely nothing before I leave I just walk out the door. I go away as much as possible.
Buy Fairplay and then share it out between you.
I’d be a bit wanky about it and ask the kids to say who does what as a kind of pretask to make DH understand your point.
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/647409/the-fair-play-deck-by-eve-rodsky/

I definitely criticised my husband, not in front of dd though. Dd I've told how important is to pick a good partner in every sense of the word and tried to demonstrate that. We're not perfect but we're a team.

@Anxioustealady I think lots of women do that. The problems with it include: work problems for part-timers (including discrimination), compounding the dynamic of the man’s work and earnings being central and facilitated, the woman ‘doing it all’ and being lesser workwise. Woman becomes more financially dependent on the man. Reduces the woman’s personal earning ability and pension - bad in the event of divorce.

You teach your girls to be financially independent above everything else. You start holding your DH to account over his lack of weight pulling so they can also see that it’s right to expect men to do more.

I have been a lone parent for 15 years. My DD16 has seen me do absolutely everything. Our girls need to know they can have it all, can do it all….but that doesn’t mean they should if they have a “partner”.

It took a lot of effort and fights but we finally split the mental load reasonably equally. If anything DH does slightly more now.

For instance he planned DDs entire birthday party without any input with me, is the person that takes her to the dentist and does all the communication around that, is always the one to buy presents for parties DD has been invited to. Granted, I am still the one to sort DDs wardrobe and tell him that we need three new outfits, but I can fully trust him to take DD shopping and come back with a sensible selection, bringing back wellies too because he realised she had outgrown them too (I hadn't!).

Don't accept any less from men.

Do you know what’s quite fascinating? You have all the mental load at home AND you have the mental load of worrying about what you’re role modelling to your daughters. I doubt your husband gives a flying shit about that, and if he says he does he’s lying. You are doing yourself and your daughters a disservice. Stop being a martyr!

I was responding to this part of the OP Would welcome comments about the future of our daughters not judgement on whether my husband does / doesn’t do enough