Are we lying to our daughters?

[Granville1]

I would like to start by saying that my husband is a really good guy. A lovely, kind person & a doting dad. Yet here I am, a burnt out millennial 40 year old mum of two girls (age 4 & 6) feeling utterly overwhelmed & exhausted by life. My head is barely ever above water

My mum is one of those superwomen. Always has seamlessly held the family together by doing everything. The full mental load is on her, but she never complains. In fact she seems to thrive on it. She always worked but perhaps not in the same “career” sense that our generation do, so perhaps didn’t quite have that additional pressure

I have now fallen into the same role as her. Although both my husband & I work full time so no reason I should take it all on. He does earn more but I also have a decent, fairly well paid & highly stressful job. Sadly we don’t earn enough for any additional help (aside from a cleaner). Yet I have become so accustomed to doing everything, I’m now stuck in a trap where my husband is -25 years of practice down & no amount of explaining or “training” 😂 would get him even close to taking on what I do

But I can’t help thinking that we are teaching our daughters that taking on everything is the norm. And even more cynically, that marriage & kids is great. It’s not. There might be a handful of exceptions but most of my friend’s (admitting it to varying levels) are miserable as sin. And most of it comes down to utter resentment of them having to balance full time careers & pick up the vast majority of the mental load (as well as physically carrying it all out too)

What do we do? Show bad role modelling by continuing to do almost everything & them thinking that’s normal? Also do we lie & say marriage & having kids is great? Or (if asked) do we generally encourage open conversations that alternatives do exist. I would never go on an aggressive tirade telling them that all women take on too much & will end up even more miserable if they get married & have kids, but at the same time, they are learning from me that masking the misery of working full time / having a career & taking on everything is normal

Has anyone else had similar thoughts? What do we do about it? How do we break the cycle? Would welcome comments about the future of our daughters not judgement on whether my husband does / doesn’t do enough

Thanks for reading

But if you have got a sexist husband, then the answer is not just to plod along because all men are that shit - the answer is to teach your daughters to be perfectly capable of living without a man.

Yep. It’s not ‘our’ daughters’ it’s your daughters. After a year of my dh not getting everything on the shopping list nor telling me what he didn’t have, I stopped meal planning and cooking, it was too hard without the ingredients. So now he does probably 60% of the cooking, and if my daughter meets a man who can’t cook she will be like what? You can read- I’ve seen you. So how stupid are you telling me you are?? ditto washing, cleaning, present shopping, ironing, tidying, taking kids to buy shoes etc. We’ve bought all of our 3 kids shoes in the last few weeks. I wasn’t there for any of them.

Regarding the ‘all my friends husbands are also shit parents’ - that doesn’t actually mean all men are like this, it means you have subconsciously become friends with people who share your problems. You will have been drawn to the mum in the playground who was complaining her husband did nothing, as you have something in common.
whereas actually there’s loads of genuinely decent fathers.

@CurlewKate (im not going to scroll back and find your post so I can quote you, sorry!) DH literally took the kids to the dentist and booked the next appt about 15 minutes ago, and bought presents for upcoming birthday parties at the weekend. Yes, without being asked let alone reminded. I’m really sorry, but it is reality for a lot of us!

What because it frustrates me that women don’t fight
back

I work in Financial Services, as a company owner, I can assure you I deal with patriarchy every bloody day.

Currently in bed with Covid and I’ve not had anyone disturb me. I assume both kids have gone to school, fed, with lunch, uniform, bags etc. DH brought me a cup of tea. It’s not a miracle

Good point. I don't think I'm 'lucky' that my partner does his fair share and in my wider social circle it's not unusual. For example, my child had a playdate last week that was organised by my partner and the other child's dad. Me and the other mum not involved at all. I think in my area, the increase in working from home has helped families share nursery/school runs more equally - at school drop off/pick up there now loads of dads there, often with prams with younger children.

@Whyherewego I tried dropping the rope and not adding appointments to the calendar with my ex after he left, leaving him to put it in himself after the info had been passed on. He missed taking one of the kids for an injection which was needed as they're vulnerable. Brought the little one back with her hair crawling with nits. This is the difficulty with dropping the rope, dirty clothes are one thing but what about when your partner or ex's lack of action start impacting your children's health?

You don’t have to be sorry! Yes, of course there are men like this. I have one too. But they are not the norm and generally get disproportionate praise for doing it.

Yeah, absolutely educate and empower women and girls to expect equality in their relationships. I think educated, professional women in Western Liberal democracies have definitely absorbed this and that can only be a good thing. But my point is that not all women have the same level of agency, not just in their relationships but in their lives generally. We all live under a rigged system in men's favour but some groups are more vulnerable than others - less affluent, less educated, less family support etc. So when women are told to just assert themselves, 'take no crap' and all the other 90s 'girl power' slogans because other, often more privileged women, are managing to, it feels like we're slipping into exceptionalism or worst still victim blaming. It's a bit like holding women responsible for their own sexual abuse/ exploitation while completely ignoring the millennia of unequal power dynamics between men and women.

So no I don't think empathizing with women struggling to change the dynamics in their relationships is 'wet' or ' whinging' as another poster hilariously called it. Let's instead put the focus on men and have a similar campaign that encourages men to 'man up' in their relationships and home life. Have efforts to make all this invisible labour, that women continue to do despite working full time, visible so that men can never pretend they don't know/ don't understand the huge responsibility they're shirking if they don't step up. Let's make being a crap father and partner only for 'losers' and put it in the same category as all other misogynistic behaviour.

Totally agree - it would shift the responsibility onto men to change their own behaviour and encourage them to influence/police their mates who were failing to step up - same thing for domestic violence/ harassment.

I'm sure your campaign will be lovely, and I look forward to seeing it take shape. Meanwhile your hyperbole protects nobody, it actually sustains the status quo. OP's kids will have grown up and left home before a campaign has impact. Anyone can learn how to assert themselves, it is not a sign a privilege and pretending it is keeps women from trying it out. OP needs to use her voice to ask her "kind" DH (who you compare to a sexual abuser based on nothing) to pull his finger out.

Or let's see, maybe I'm wrong. OP - is your DH exploitative and a sexual abuser, or are you able to have a quick chat to explain why he's picking up all washing up duties from now on?

The thing is, I don't really disagree with any of that, but this thread is specifically focused on what we are teaching our daughters and on what we are modelling for them in our own lives and relationships. It isn't victim blaming to point out that kids will learn from what they see at home, to encourage women to push for greater equality and to say that we should teach our daughters to choose their life partners very carefully. You're right that some women have more agency than others, but in many ways, that starts with what they learn in the home as young children. We should be striving to change that while simultaneously doing some of the other things that you have mentioned. It isn't an either/or choice.

Choosing a life partner/co-parent for your children is probably one of the most important decisions that any of us will ever make. We owe it to our daughters to be honest and intentional with them about the importance of choosing wisely. And yes, some of them will undoubtedly make poor choices regardless, but that isn't a reason not to encourage them to really think through their choices properly before they end up trapped in a situation that they didn't want or envisage for themselves.

Blimey - I see nuance is completely missed on you GRex. I think it's you being hyperbolic - I haven't accused anyone's partner of being sexually abusive. It's called making a comparison to see if the same dynamics are at play but I think you're being disingenuous rather than thick so perhaps we'll leave it there shall we as you're obviously intent on getting personal.

They will observe your marriage and how happy / unhappy you seem and draw their own conclusions on whether they think it looks "great" or not - what you say will make no difference. They will be a bit older before they start to consider the whole parent / child thing from the parents' perspective rather than their own, but...same deal.

Kids don't pay that much attention to what we say; they watch what we do. And they're VERY quick to notice the contradictions. It's weird how many people don't seem to remember that, from when they were kids themselves.

Quiet quit

Only do the necessary stuff

Which is tough to do

I think we're 'arguing' at cross purposes - I agree with that too. There's nothing wrong with doing all we can to empower our daughters, encourage our friends, make our own lives better. I just think it should always be framed in the context that not all women's lives are equal and some women will find it easier than others to get that fair division of labour - which really shouldn't be a controversial statement. But to be honest I forgot we're on AIBU and not the Feminist Boards 😅

As my mom taught me but I think she regrets that now…

Mind doees, or did, they are all adults now so nits are a thing of the past.
But he was the nit picker, the plait do-er, the nail clipper. Hes v good at buying presents and often did the gift picking up for pals for partys.
He has a calender just like i do, and he knows kids need dentists.
Cos, you know, hes a grown ass man who has kids that need looking after.

@Granville1 - you asked what to do.

I’d day first offload mundane work which has low rate of failure - jobs around the house ie cleaning/clothes washing/drying and putting away. If it doesn’t get done on time - hold him accountable and let him handle the fallout.

Then play to your strengths and his. Where the risk is lower - hand off e.g. taking kids to places - anywhere - all extra curricular, parties, play dates and as much as possible the school run. Save your energy for school emails, forms, payments. Look at it as division of time and labour. If one takes the physical load, the other could take the mental.

something as repetitive as groceries and cooking (& cleaning up) can be done in turns or it gets too boring.

slow steps but it can happen - IF he is willing.

Why are you doing everything ?
what you can’t share - outsource or just do less

Well yes of course that situation us horrible and I've never put my kids in a dangerous position so you're right. There's a limit.

Yes, unfortunately it can be very painful to admit to ourselves that the person we have chosen to spend our lives with is, however nice and pleasant they are, prioritising their relaxation and comfort over ours. They know that we do more but it suits them so they go on - even when told.

I can remember a lecturer telling me that changing drink driving laws didn’t make people stop drinking driving - only when it became stigmatised by society did the levels of drink driving reduce. We need the same type of shift for lazy fathers.

And one of the ways we can do that is by looking for the signs and avoiding them.

Men aren't going to change because 'society' puts pressure on them.

And, if they do, that will be because women make up half of that society and stop choosing them.

This. Lazy men have no incentive to change as there will always be plenty of women willing to settle for them.