Are we lying to our daughters?

[Granville1]

I would like to start by saying that my husband is a really good guy. A lovely, kind person & a doting dad. Yet here I am, a burnt out millennial 40 year old mum of two girls (age 4 & 6) feeling utterly overwhelmed & exhausted by life. My head is barely ever above water

My mum is one of those superwomen. Always has seamlessly held the family together by doing everything. The full mental load is on her, but she never complains. In fact she seems to thrive on it. She always worked but perhaps not in the same “career” sense that our generation do, so perhaps didn’t quite have that additional pressure

I have now fallen into the same role as her. Although both my husband & I work full time so no reason I should take it all on. He does earn more but I also have a decent, fairly well paid & highly stressful job. Sadly we don’t earn enough for any additional help (aside from a cleaner). Yet I have become so accustomed to doing everything, I’m now stuck in a trap where my husband is -25 years of practice down & no amount of explaining or “training” 😂 would get him even close to taking on what I do

But I can’t help thinking that we are teaching our daughters that taking on everything is the norm. And even more cynically, that marriage & kids is great. It’s not. There might be a handful of exceptions but most of my friend’s (admitting it to varying levels) are miserable as sin. And most of it comes down to utter resentment of them having to balance full time careers & pick up the vast majority of the mental load (as well as physically carrying it all out too)

What do we do? Show bad role modelling by continuing to do almost everything & them thinking that’s normal? Also do we lie & say marriage & having kids is great? Or (if asked) do we generally encourage open conversations that alternatives do exist. I would never go on an aggressive tirade telling them that all women take on too much & will end up even more miserable if they get married & have kids, but at the same time, they are learning from me that masking the misery of working full time / having a career & taking on everything is normal

Has anyone else had similar thoughts? What do we do about it? How do we break the cycle? Would welcome comments about the future of our daughters not judgement on whether my husband does / doesn’t do enough

Thanks for reading

I also recognise what the OP is saying and this.

But over time, there are some practical things I/we have done to shift things in our home so that while each tas is NOT split 50/50, our children see that we are both responsible for the overall running of the household.

Also, our split has to take into account that we now realise that DH most likely has the same inattentive ADHD that DS has which means his executive function is, without a doubt, genuinely poor (as it is for his mother, his sister, his brother and his nephew...). This is not just an "excuse" - it's been an issue his whole life and has affected a lotof what he does, including his career choices. He is NOT one of those people who claim "ADHD" at home while managing complex situations at work.

1 I still do the bulk of the mental load, but DH has stepped up to do a LOT more of the every day tasks. So he does the bulk of the tidying up and cleaning (I use the robot vac but I haven't got the real vacuum out in YEAS - if there's a spillage, or ad hock need, or whatever... thats all on DH), most of the laundry, he tends to do the ferrying of children etc. I mostly shop online but he can and does does any ad hoc shopping required (albeit with a list from me), or the odd weekly shop that has to be done in person. And he unloads the vast bulk of these online shops.

I have handed off specific tasks that require mental load to him. Mostly ones that are less urgent/time sensitive and/or can be done in a flexible manner to facilitate his poor planning skills eg dentist, DIY and maintenance, insurance and other longer-term bills, all tech issues, garden management etc.

When it comes to bigger events for which I am doing ALL the planning like kids parties etc, he steps up to do any and all physical tasks required as requested without complaint. This is really important becuase I see other men doing it while whinging etc and he used to be a bit like that - but he's completely accepted that the quid pro quo is that I do all the planning and thining and organising and he just gets on with whatever hels asked to do and does it without whining.

And I think what's important is that we're open with the DC about the reality. "Mummy plans the parties because shes better at it but Daddy is in charge of all the cleaning up, last minute shopping trips, looking after the children while mummy sorts the food etc".

I'm also really working hard to help DS find ways around the executive function issue while he's still young. He's never going to be a lot better at this planning than DH is, but at least he's got time to figure out solutions and he won't be told by me and society that it's OKAY for a boy to be bad at this stuff, which DH basically was. I look at him/his brother vs his sister and mother and it's classic. His mother and sister are as shit as the men... but they feel guilty, they have 10000 strategies to over compensate etc. DH and his brother don't even think about it (well, Dh does now because I get annoyed when his sister is being left with family organising!)

@Granville1 how are you getting on? I saw Cordelia Fine speak about her latest book last night and thought you might like it - if you ever get the time to read it

Patriarchy Inc.: What We Get Wrong About Gender Equality and Why Men Still Win at Work

there’s a chapter on parenting and it reminded me of those studies that show marriages / relationships where the man does more around the house are happier, and have better sex lives (I’m summarising flippantly). The talk last night said various studies are included in the book - Cordelia Fine always cites excellent scientific evidence - and egalitarian relationships (eg sharing out domestic tasks and childcare) are overall happier.

I can relate to the dh (and ds) with adhd. We also have a nd dd, but she is super organised and independent, despite only being 8yo!

It's the mental load that I carry mostly. Dh is great with the practical things and does a lot around the house/ with childcare, but I tend to have to give him lists to work from. Or I'll say "can you do x" and he does it. But the mental load for a household of three ND people is crazy, and I did burn out a couple of years ago when I have also having a torrid time at work and dd became a school avoider. So I'm also an untrained psychologist who researches ways of helping the kids develop into functioning adults, and has to find the calm and patience to put it into practice. Because dh can become emotionally dysregulated, he finds this side of parenting really hard. He desperately wants to help, but invariably tricky situations escalate when he tries to resolve them.

I work shorter hours for more pay than him, so we've found our balance by me cutting down hours so I have two days to focus on life admin. I am much happier and calmer as a result. I can't actually remember how I managed it all before I went part time. Well, actually I didn't, did I? Because I burned out.

I think the "man with a big job / SAHM or part time" model is the problem

My DH and I work similar hours, similar salaries and I think this is the best way to achieve equality

If the father does his share. Most don’t.

And often it didn’t become apparent that they wouldn’t until after DC.

relatively easy to do a share domestic work in a couple. Much, much more domestic work after DC, plus parenting.

I can’t help thinking that we are teaching our daughters that taking on everything is the norm

Sorry to be blunt but now 'we' are not teaching our daughters that, you are. My husband and I share all household chores, you name it he does it, he also does more than his fair share of childcare. It's all about how you set up your family dynamic. We are equal in our house.

Obviously not always possible for all families depending on work but it would never be a possibility that I'd have a husband who was incapable or unable to be 'trained' as you put it.

Oh he sees housework. He just thinks it's beneath him

I'm very pleased you work similar hours for similar salaries and feel very equal. When we first had chikdren we were like that too.

But realistically are we expecting people to only have children with people who earn a similar amount to them and have the same opportunities to progress.

People fall in love with things like having similar values, sense of humour, loyality, caring natures and looks not just a bank balance.

(I don't think the lesser earning partners job should just be seen as of disposable, especially if they enjoy it and need it for mental health)

I can relate to the dh (and ds) with adhd. We also have a nd dd, but she is super organised and independent, despite only being 8yo! @Whatafustercluck

I recognise this too and it scares me sometimes. I feel like DD (10) is already compensating for her father's lack of planning ability and I worry that we're leaving her to deal with too much because I'm busy propping up DS and DH.

I have come close to burn out a few times myself.

Then stop picking these men to have children with/live with.

Many men wanting a partner and DC are clever and motivated enough - or perhaps not self aware - not to reveal their biases/priorities/flaws before DC.

Do a fair share when dating and cohabiting, don’t display any obvious sexist attitudes. Have DC, and at some point after that don’t do a fair share of the additional domestic work and parenting, don’t make compromises affecting their work.

I’m sure that does happen @Dozer, but linking it to the original poster - she is/was of the opinion that everyone is doing this, that everyone is having far lower expectations for men than for women. So I would think that there are far more instances, when the man does indeed reveal himself as going to be doing unequal parenting, but the woman pushes on anyway under the impression that all men are sub standard. So she knew that her husband was going to be useless after the first child, and possibly before, but pushed on anyway as that is how low her expectations of men are.

That is what is happening. Look at South Korea. The UK is going this way too.

Sure NAMALT but sadly I think it’s the majority of fathers who don’t do as much parenting / domestic work as their partners (or exes). Different degrees of inequality.

I work part time while my partner works full time, so I inevitably do more of the childcare, cleaning etc. Our daughter is disabled and one of us needs to be there to take her to appointments, etc. Since even my full time wages wouldn't have been enough for us all to live on it made most sense for me to be the one to go part time. But honestly I also wanted it that way. My daughter is one of only about 5 children who gets picked up from nursery after lunch (and one of the others is full time 3 days a week and goes home after lunch the other 2). I would hate to have her in nursery until 5 every day and only get to spend quality time with her on weekends. Her dad doesn't seem as bothered by it. On days he's working from home he joins us for dinner/bedtime if he's not in meetings and tries to be home for bedtime the other days and last week when we were on holiday in my home country he did all her baths, over half of nappies and kept her entertained so I could catch up with family and friends. If possible he also takes the morning off when she's ill then starts work when I'm finished for the day. And he does all the routine doctor's appointments (annual progress checks) , which we arrange for 8 a.m. so he takes her then drops her at nursery and goes to work. Specialist appointments we both go to whenever possible, but he's also taken her to several without me. So he's very involved when he's there but doesn't seem to mind that he's simple not there most of the time. While our daughter does see her dad cooking, cleaning, etc. she's not stupid and even at 3 she's well aware that I do most of it, but we try to talk about how daddies can do things as well and we read books showing all kinds of family set ups. It doesn't help that we live in a country that still expects women to either stay at home or assumes people have family around to do all the childcare, so whenever I take her anywhere in the afternoon 99% of other children are with their mothers or grandmothers (not sure where all the grandfathers are in this either. I can only think of one we see regularly!). I feel like if there were more men visibly doing more childcare it would be easier to say this is what we've chosen to do but it could just as easily have been daddy who stayed home with you. But I suppose I'm part of the problem.

Please have a listen to the Susanne Venker Show on either YouTube or the podcast version. She answers all these questions thoroughly.

Please tell him that you're struggling and that he is setting a bad example. Can he have several housework chores that would really help you out that he always does when the girls are around? Then they would see him sharing and helping. Pick ones that really need doing!

I would love to know how many husbands do do their share of the ‘home/house’ load. I agree with OP that men seem to think they’re ‘helping us out’ rather than it’s a partnership.

I think it will take another generation or two, for the male species to actually come close to fully doing their share. I constantly make it known to my daughter that she should not be doing it all. And my son does his own cooking, laundry and cleaning. That is what we should be doing as mothers, making all our children independent and not doing everything for them if they are old enough to do so.

Most of the men in their 40s/50s have grown up in a household where the mother’s did everything, that has stuck with them and will take some time to change in my opinion.

Plenty of women have posted saying their partners/husbands do.

I'm.51. My mum did everything and brought me up to expect the same. No chance!

My exh is the same age as me. He grew up with his dad doing most things because of their work patterns. We divorced but he never once shirkwd on household responsibilities or considered himself to he helping out.

My partner now is 61. He does more housework than me and carries more of the mental load because my professional mental load is greater than his.

When he was married, he and his then wife took 50/50 responsibility when their children were young because they worked opposing shift patterns.

I've never had a relationship with a man who expected me to do the majority and it wouldn't have lasted very long if he had. I've always expected it to he equal.

As someone who walked right into that trap- I completely agree. And honestly, it never occurred to me that things wouldn’t be equal once the baby arrived- I assumed, because before, things were equal. After mat leave, work and child days were equal Mon-Fri 9-5, but anything outside that was my responsibility, and even on my working days I did much more housework (why? I don’t know- just that if I didn’t do it it didn’t get done, it would still be there the next day when it would be my day for domestic work and I’d be blamed if everything wasn’t done.)

I also really regret putting his name on the bc, but it is what it is, now.

I've lived with two partners and have had a third who spent the majority of the week at mine. All three did at least as many domestic chores as me. This wasn't 'good luck' or by chance - I would never have been in a relationship/moved in with anyone who expected me to be their cook/cleaner/domestic help. That was never the life I wanted. I've been fortunate to have had opportunities to study to a high level and build a career, so although I'm not a high earner I haven't ever felt forced into a domestic role in order to have a man provide financially for me.

After having a child, we both changed to 4 days a week. Financially as a family we'd be a bit better off if I worked 3 days and my partner full time. But I don't want that - I think in that scenario, fairly, I would be expected to do the majority of cleaning and cooking and that's not what I want. Others enjoy the home making role and that's absolutely fine. It's all about bringing girls and boys up to see that they have choices.