Are we lying to our daughters?

[Granville1]

I would like to start by saying that my husband is a really good guy. A lovely, kind person & a doting dad. Yet here I am, a burnt out millennial 40 year old mum of two girls (age 4 & 6) feeling utterly overwhelmed & exhausted by life. My head is barely ever above water

My mum is one of those superwomen. Always has seamlessly held the family together by doing everything. The full mental load is on her, but she never complains. In fact she seems to thrive on it. She always worked but perhaps not in the same “career” sense that our generation do, so perhaps didn’t quite have that additional pressure

I have now fallen into the same role as her. Although both my husband & I work full time so no reason I should take it all on. He does earn more but I also have a decent, fairly well paid & highly stressful job. Sadly we don’t earn enough for any additional help (aside from a cleaner). Yet I have become so accustomed to doing everything, I’m now stuck in a trap where my husband is -25 years of practice down & no amount of explaining or “training” 😂 would get him even close to taking on what I do

But I can’t help thinking that we are teaching our daughters that taking on everything is the norm. And even more cynically, that marriage & kids is great. It’s not. There might be a handful of exceptions but most of my friend’s (admitting it to varying levels) are miserable as sin. And most of it comes down to utter resentment of them having to balance full time careers & pick up the vast majority of the mental load (as well as physically carrying it all out too)

What do we do? Show bad role modelling by continuing to do almost everything & them thinking that’s normal? Also do we lie & say marriage & having kids is great? Or (if asked) do we generally encourage open conversations that alternatives do exist. I would never go on an aggressive tirade telling them that all women take on too much & will end up even more miserable if they get married & have kids, but at the same time, they are learning from me that masking the misery of working full time / having a career & taking on everything is normal

Has anyone else had similar thoughts? What do we do about it? How do we break the cycle? Would welcome comments about the future of our daughters not judgement on whether my husband does / doesn’t do enough

Thanks for reading

men are really from
Mars and women from Venus. Once I finally understood this, I work with our strengths. DH just doesn’t see housework and don’t think it’s necessary to spend time being concerned about keeping things pristine. However, he keeps an eye on our savinga, financial planning , mows the loans, helps the kids with their academic work, guides them in their careers etc . This may seem un feminist etc but it works for us at the moment. We do have a cleaner which helps

Would welcome comments about the future of our daughters not judgement on whether my husband does / doesn’t do enough

This. This comment right here is your problem, OP.

You don’t want to have to change things at home. You don’t want to face up to the fact that your H is not the lovely, kind man you want him to be, but is instead a man letting you be ‘miserable as sin’ so he gets out of cleaning the toilet. You want to continue to suffer silently, believing all women live like this and nothing can be done about it. Yet you still want to magically not model this terrible dynamic so your daughters don’t suffer as you are.

There are definitely more open and honest conversations in society around the challenges of having a family, and its certainly less taboo than it was for women to choose to remain childfree than it was. The main thing your girls will learn despite what's going on on a societal level is what happens in your home, just as you learnt its fine for mum to do everything because yours did, they'll learn the same. Break the cycle and hold their father to account.

Its also up to you if you tell them having a family is great, one thing when shes a bit older I'll probably drop in is that the single most important part of the decision making process around deciding whether she wants to have children is ensuring the potential father actually wants children, and is a decent guy who will likely keep his word. So many of my friends had children with men who weren't arsed and the pregnancy was an 'accident' and then wonder why theyre crap, or men who were lazy around the house and not overly thoughtful beforehand and haven't magically changed. Sure some men change after children, plenty don't and that is something in the womans control.

I get that you feel utterly burnt out, and that taking more action probably feels too much.

But make a list of everything you do. Ask your husband to do the same. And then compare lists. If it’s obvious that you carry a lot more of the load, you can work out how to share it. If he truly cares about you, he will step up. If he fundamentally doesn’t care for your welfare to step up, you don’t need him.

I did this. I was pushed almost to breaking point with a husband who expected me to help him, work a full time stressful job, take on all the mental load of children plus all housework. Well he halfheartedly agreed to pitch in with household chores. It lasted barely a month. We went to couples counselling and tried again. With the accountability of seeing the counsellor each week the changes stuck for longer, but in the long run the result was the same. He didn’t care enough about me to step up.

So I asked him to move out and divorced him. The set up wasn’t sustainable. He was full of regret at one point and asked to try again but I knew that after a few weeks, we would fall back into the same pattern. Being a single parent was a huge relief, less effort, I didn’t have to consider him much. I bought in help for the occasional bit of DIY he would have done. My children are now adults, one in a healthy relationship, the other single. My daughter says that I modelled healthy setting of boundaries for them.

But I hope for you that it won’t come to this and your husband will step up.

I am now in an equal relationship, with someone who I don’t even have to negotiate with. They just get it. Every day I appreciate this.

I have a great career, lovely DC, a lovely husband and I don’t ’do everything’. Household labour is a pretty equitable split, and we’re fortunately in a position to afford help.

In terms of ‘having it all’, I suppose I do. It’s very achievable and it’s what I will teach DC to strive for. I’m also not some magical outlier - most of my friends, male or female, have what appear to be very equitable relationships and seem pretty happy. Most of them also have pretty solid careers.

So, I think we should teach our DDs that they can have great lives, and then support them on achieving them. Much of this support starts by modelling. In your case, that requires a real appraisal of your life and the changes you and your DH need to make.

I completely disagree that she needs to teach her girls to be financially independent above all else. That’s the life OP has now, she works full time and earns a larger share of the finances but she has nothing else. Her partner doesn’t respect her, he doesn’t engage in family life, he isn’t concerned about the family life his children see and grow up with.
These things are not one or the other.

‘he just doesn’t see housework needs doing’ and ‘men are from mars’: really?

Do you work full time @Truetoself ?

I can really relate to this. I helped my SAHM a lot to keep the peace in our home. I can’t let things go and veer towards keeping things tidy, wiping up, quick hoover to keep the peace (which is now in my head)
when I was married (along time ago now) I really tried to work on this as I realised my ex did not have the same standards!

@WonderingWanda YES!!! The net curtains! I resonate with your post a lot!

OP I'm not going to give you a hard time. I got some shit about this on a thread i posted about not getting a job(?!?) our split is more 70/30. I'm working on it but
A. In and of itself its another job I dont have energy for as it takes 20 conversations
B. Rome wasnt build in a day.

Start small and make him exclusively responsible for certain tasks.
Also make space for yourself and be "Selfish"

An easy starter for 10 is dishes. Make it dhs job.l exclusively.
if it's in the sink DH hand washes and puts away. If its in the dishwashers he runs it and unloads it - agree days ahead of time sun tue thu sat works for us.

He does his washing and i've do mine and the kids. Its my choice because I dont like Mouldy clothes.
he will wash them with anal precison colour sorting,stain removing etc but NOT hang them properly. He cant explain why he does it (its because he thinks its too much hassle) and says he "cant smell it" so wont turn out clothes or space them properly. I just cannot change this so I have to work around it.

I strip and wash beds - he puts new bedding on because you cant mess up sheets.

I also found there are Saturday play groups just for dads!!
They are cheaper and the dads get bacon rolls croissants etc... (i know i know) he goes to one of these every month now. It took 9 months to get him to go now he likes it and goes happily.

I would agree with this. My mother never really worked for a living, except before she was married. Mainly because she is a bit of a snob and thought woman should just do child care but she never really looked happy in this role and essentially did the job but without much enthusiasm. My father is also quite traditional, woman do the '3 C's' - cleaning, cooking and child rearing. His role as a father is to provide a home and discipline - children were to be seen and not heard. Both believed boys were to go out and do 'boy's things' and girls were to wear pink and look pretty.

As it happens I am not a girly girl and have zero maternal instinct in me - never wanted children as the lifestyle look miserable.

I think girls/daughters have the measure of the situation, I would say men need to wise up and understand they need to step up and contribute more. Women work alongside them now so the way they parent needs to change and adapt. But many men have grown up with the role model of almost been a 'step in when required or asked' parent but do none of the logistics.

Both my children recognised their father’s reluctance to do anything in the family home………he wouldn’t even put the kettle on let alone start dinner if he was home before me from work. Everything was on my shoulders although the children did help.
Each of them vowed to choose a man who treated them as an equal and not a drudge. They both have successful careers, fabulously supportive husbands and are bringing up their own children in the same way.
Me?………I’m now divorced 👩‍🔧

It's depressing how things have regressed in the last 40 years ago, in many respects. So many young women on MN desperate for a proposal, the man asking her father's permission, the man taking control in the relationship, and having higher status and contributing what he wants. So many threads like this.

Have you sat down and had a conversation with your DH about this? I did, and he acknowledged I did much more of the 'life admin' but hen he tried to do some of it I would get annoyed if not done 'my way' so he didn't know whether it was more or less stressful for him to take some of it on.

So I had to make changes too, become a bit less controlling. And we divided up the responsibilities, he now does all the bills, submits meter reading, sorts out car tax insurance mots etc, birthday presents etc for his side of the family. And I sort out child related admin - school lunches, trips, booking after schoolclubs, party invites and presents, their hospital appts (he takes to some but my responsibility to book and rearrange if needed). He does the garden, the bins, cooking and food shopping, I do cleaning and clothes washing.

Growing up I saw my Dad really involved even though he worked long hours and my mum worked very part time. But once home he did not stop - did washing up, helping up with our homework, taking us out on Saturdays to give my mum a break, did night feeds, dropped us to school on way to work. He showed a huge amount of respect for my mum and reminded us that he role was much harder than his. So I always had that example set that housework and parenting was an equal task for both parents, and that influenced my choices in who I married and how we live. So I think its really important for children to see their parents as having equal roles in their lives if possible.

I don't think it's a given your DDs will end up burnt out and overwhelmed...I'm not much younger than you with 2 primary age boys and I don't think I am any more tired than DH (though i was during the toddler years but I was still breastfeeding then).

We both share the mental load (granted there are some things DH doesn't do as well as me, but there are some things I don't do as well.as DH) and both have time to see friends.

This, although I don’t know if we’ve got an equal split. But dh is cooking dinner, he meal planned and shopped for the week, wrapped two presents for parties and took the kids to the parties this weekend. He booked the dc dentist appt for a chipped tooth this weekend. I make him engage on some of the mental load, and I crack the absolute stinking shits if he isn’t pulling his weight, because why wouldn’t I? Why would I carry on pretending we’re a happy family when I’m not fucking happy if I’m carrying us? I’m human, and I have a career and children. Tell him how you feel and hand him off tasks, more every day. If he’s a healthy mid age adult he can definitely learn ALL of it well before retirement and how much more do you look forward to retirement when you’re not going to be the housekeeper?

I know it is, but otherwise it seems like women with children have to work several full time jobs, including asking and asking their husband for help that's not forthcoming. Parenting normally places more demands on women, and I think we try pretend it doesn't and women suffer, men benefit.

Speak for yourself - WE are not setting this example for OUR daughters, YOU are setting it for YOURS. Things are pretty equal in my household, so I think we’re setting a good example for my daughters (and my son).

Your situation will carry on like it is unless you decide to do something about it. Talk to your husband - you say he’s a great guy - about how things need to be more equal and he needs to take on more. Have a discussion with input from you both about how this can work. Saying he’s too stuck in his ways is a cop out.

But marriage is great as long as you marry a great man.

A great man is one who sees his wife as an equal to him, not his skivvy.

If you want to teach your daughter anything, teach her to value her worth and to only marry someone who sees it too.

Don’t be a martyr and quit all household duties, I think that ship has sailed, and instead teach your daughter not to marry someone like her father.

You need to talk to your husband that this can't carry on and set the tone that as a family everyone has family tasks to do. Share the workload.

If you don't physically change things at home then You either tell your kids that their dad was useless and wouldn't help or you pretend that it's all ok. Neither set a good example, both likely ruin your marriage.

So, take control. Change the situation at home.

Put it this way, if, God forbid you were hospitalised today for say 6 weeks he would have to do everything. The reason he doesn't is because you martyr yourself by doing it all. No one loves all aspects of housework. They might cherry pick what they like doing such as walking the dog or emptying the bins once or twice a week.

I was a sahm but Dh drove Ds to secondary school, dropping him off on his commute to work. Lovely chats in the car. I was still available to do it but it was their thing together. I picked him up. When that stopped after Covid with hybrid working he still drove Ds to school and just came back home. The number of times on here women post about cleaning something up because they had to, no they didn't. They chose to do it instead of saying to their Dh that they would not be the one cleaning up something that happened when they were not there.

Being on top of it all is about being organised and that comes from having an equal partner, someone who shares it with you so that contempt doesn't build. No "good" dad or husband happily watches his wife/partner run round like a headless chicken, drowning with responsibility. That is a shit partner. They are meant to love you, care for you, cherish you. So why do they "let" you do everything? Because they are lazy bastards.

My parents has an unequal marriage in that my dad worked all the hours god sent (because he enjoyed it) and made good money, my mum worked too but did all (every little bit) of the life work - cleaning, cooking, school stuff, clubs, holidays planned etc. They were actually quite happily married because she accepted it for what it was, she had full control of the finances and we had a lovely life.

She addressed this with us by telling the girls to never allow ourselves to be financially dependent on another person (and we have not), and by making sure we spent time with other male role models (one of my uncles in particular). She was open about my dad’s weaknesses with us, but in a kind way - not slagging him off, just educating us.

You should really focus on getting your husband to step up but if you can’t do that then you should BOTH acknowledge it with your children and you should encourage them not to settle for it themselves.

My brother does over 50 per cent of the family workload in his family, and my sister and I are both in largely equal marriages. So you can make it work.

I’m a couple of years younger than you op. I work in a high stress job with two kids and I agree it’s bloody hard work! 😓
One reason it’s hard work is the social expectations of women who need to work to live in this expensive world, and yet have had no adjustment in how to support children while doing this.
the second reason I’m sorry to say is definitely the husband. You need to share the load and the only way to do this is to write it all down and split the jobs. He is capable but won’t change off his own back. You need to to have a serious conversation about the efforts of running a house/ raising a family and raise your expectations of him.
just to add it does get easier (mine are 14 and 9, and alough older ages come with thier own issues, it’s much easier than the stage you are at- hang in there!)

You need to find your anger about this situation and tell your husband that he must pull his weight. Don't be resigned to it, don't let him bullshit you, don't be a martyr and give your DDs a chance to see how an equal marriage works.

You need to sit down with your DH and talk. Urgently.

DH grew up with a p/t working mum and f/t working dad. Nevertheless my FIL always did his share, he actually cooks more than my MIL. So DH never expected me to do it all in addition to working.

DD (now 18) has always seen her dad cooking, doing the dishes, cleaning, doing some life admin (we share, he does the car, house stuff, researches electronics, while I do the money, insurances, DD's stuff, pre-holiday research etc).

We both have jobs where we travel to an extent and she had a childhood with her dad doing everything while I was away for 2 weeks at a time.

Therefore - yes, modelling how a fair relationship is absolutely necessary for a child to know that in a partnership the couple needs to be equal.
I actually don't think it's restricted to girls, boys also need to see how their dad is doing boring housework and learn how to do it.

we have a more ‘traditional’ set up. I do a part time work round family commitments DH has the big job. He still does his fair share of the mental load and house hold tasks. Actually frankly given the difference in working hours he does significantly more than his fair share. Currently he is stripping our bed and putting the washing on.

My personal view is that we lie to all young people. That is possible for you both to have the career and children. We found it wasn’t - we both couldn’t work 60 weeks. We have no family nearby, parents were not well enough to be able to help for the holidays. Holiday clubs were not DCs thing. etc. TBF both DC are ND so possibly need more input than standard but this ship would not sail if i hadn’t given up my job.