Are we lying to our daughters?

[Granville1]

I would like to start by saying that my husband is a really good guy. A lovely, kind person & a doting dad. Yet here I am, a burnt out millennial 40 year old mum of two girls (age 4 & 6) feeling utterly overwhelmed & exhausted by life. My head is barely ever above water

My mum is one of those superwomen. Always has seamlessly held the family together by doing everything. The full mental load is on her, but she never complains. In fact she seems to thrive on it. She always worked but perhaps not in the same “career” sense that our generation do, so perhaps didn’t quite have that additional pressure

I have now fallen into the same role as her. Although both my husband & I work full time so no reason I should take it all on. He does earn more but I also have a decent, fairly well paid & highly stressful job. Sadly we don’t earn enough for any additional help (aside from a cleaner). Yet I have become so accustomed to doing everything, I’m now stuck in a trap where my husband is -25 years of practice down & no amount of explaining or “training” 😂 would get him even close to taking on what I do

But I can’t help thinking that we are teaching our daughters that taking on everything is the norm. And even more cynically, that marriage & kids is great. It’s not. There might be a handful of exceptions but most of my friend’s (admitting it to varying levels) are miserable as sin. And most of it comes down to utter resentment of them having to balance full time careers & pick up the vast majority of the mental load (as well as physically carrying it all out too)

What do we do? Show bad role modelling by continuing to do almost everything & them thinking that’s normal? Also do we lie & say marriage & having kids is great? Or (if asked) do we generally encourage open conversations that alternatives do exist. I would never go on an aggressive tirade telling them that all women take on too much & will end up even more miserable if they get married & have kids, but at the same time, they are learning from me that masking the misery of working full time / having a career & taking on everything is normal

Has anyone else had similar thoughts? What do we do about it? How do we break the cycle? Would welcome comments about the future of our daughters not judgement on whether my husband does / doesn’t do enough

Thanks for reading

Birthday presents for parties - usually which ever of us was going to do the dropping off at the party although once a year we would do an Amazon order of appropriate presents to cover for emergencies. Dental appointments - we all go together and the next appointment is made whilst we are there. Details on our joint calendar. Not had nit comb duty.

Mine does all of this. He is actually better at picking presents for DDs friends than I am as he just goes with DD and buys a load of tat (in my eyes 😁) whereas I like a more sensible ("boring") present. Guess what 8 year olds prefer.

Both dh and I grew up in households where the mother ran the home and the father paid the bills. I tried to have a career but ended up burnt out trying to do it all. Now I work park time and do most of the family stuff. Ironically dh does more now than he did when I worked full time. I also worry I have modelled poorly, dh does a lot more than either of our dads did but our situation is pretty traditional.

Me

Me . Honestly.

No woman I know has a partner that does any of this.

I think around ‘our’ generation (I am 40) that we were bought up with quite traditional roles from our parents still, although my mum and lots of friends mums worked, and we were sold on the having it all, girl power of the late 90’s.

I definitely do a lot at home- I am default parent and it takes up a lot of headspace. My DH does plenty however (and more than both our dads ever did!) just isn’t quite as on his mind and on it as I have to be to hold everything together. I was ambitious and climbed the career ladder but I could sustain it all and burnt out, leaving me with reprioritising the importance of my family and not working myself to death to ‘have it all’

I have been quite honest with my son and daughter about importance of making life choices to be happy in career, having boundaries, enjoying life etc. I think we know so much more about mental health and are open to talking about it now, which will influence them as they grow up.

I hope that by their generation things will be a little more balanced again- it’s moving in the right direction but won’t happen overnight!

I’m a bit older than you and nothing changed until I started to take my own time. I planned days out for myself and went, even when I wanted to stay at home. I went abroad on holiday for a week. I started evening hobbies. I didn’t ask permission, I told him calmly well in advance. Gradually things started to change as he had to face the fact that it is hard work and that he had no special right to not work as hard as me at parenting. I didn’t expect him to fall into this pattern but looking back , there were some signs from before we had children. My mum’s relationship had been like that and I had inadvertently allowed mine to become like it too. So I brought it back. Now things are more balanced than they have ever been, still not 50/50 but way better. It’s in your power - you just have to take action. Model it for your daughters

That’s very sad .You must have a never narrow social circle.

I think different standards between partners is a challenge. E.g. I know I’ve had to ‘lower’ my standards over the years with regards to tidiness in the house so that I didn’t do everything. My DH is just wired differently to me.
Also my DH had mental health challenges over the years and when he was was poorly I had to everything in the house to minimise the impact on my children. Some on here would call me a martyr, but I did what I did so we could keep functioning as a family. He’s had mental health challenges for over 20 years. That was never the plan.

I wonder what they do contribute as a parent if they don’t do basic things like this.

I have been on several work trips and one holiday by myself since my daughter was 2. I can recommend it to any mother.

When my eldest DD was 3 we did an international move where I moved 3 weeks before the rest of the family so I could get everything ready. DH made the journey on his own with DD.

And because my DH is not a wet blanket I was not worried about either leaving her with him or their journey.

My own father in contrast was completely useless. My poor mother would barely dare to go out for the day, he wouldn't change nappies often enough or feed us properly.

Mine does all that. We haven't had nits (fingers crossed we don't toatally jinxing it now 🙈) but he weekly tackles my 3 year olds long hair that seems to get into a tangled Bush through the week. That job needs a lot of patience.

Don't feel too bad OP, you definitely won't be alone.

Does anyone else get the sense that admitting to any inequality in the sharing of the mental load/ domestic labour has been given the same whiff of failure as confessing to not 'leaning in' to your job or doing regular exercise or giving your kids UPFs?

Having a completely equal relationship (or the appearance of it) feels like another marker of success for women to be judged on along with career, looks, family life etc - nothing new under patriarchy I guess.

Stop doing all of the additional work. Problem solved. It really is that simple

And if they always call you first, if you’re in a meeting just look at your phone and let it silently ring out. The childcare staff will just immediately dial your dh and tell him the problem, and then it’s his to triage. You do not always have to take the load because someone tries to hand it to you. Ditto dh saying ‘we need to do party invites’ is not allocating you the task. For a while I allocated every single thing dh said ‘we need to do’ to him; good idea dh im doing x y and z so could you look at that tonight?

Stop doing anything for him, say you expect him to stop being a deadweight and he'll at some point learn to be independent. Find your self esteem.

Freedom = Slavery

I don't think it's about telling women that they have failed if they haven't got an equal relationship. It's more about pushing back on the idea that there is an inevitability to that inequality.

I often see posts on here, written by women who are in relationships with sexist men, essentially arguing that equality in the workplace is not something that women should aspire to because they will end up having to carry a bigger burden at home alongside their professional career. There is an assumption that, because their own husband/partner refuses to step up, this is universal, and that all men are simply incapable of stepping up.

I want women to recognise that none of this is inevitable and that they have choices. And this starts with their choice of partner. If they want a traditional set-up with a male breadwinner/female SAHP, then they need to marry someone who shares that vision and value system. If they want an equal relationship in which all responsibilities are shared, then they need to pick a man who will be willing and able to step up to that. We need to teach our dc to have these conversations before settling down and having dc. We need to teach them not to make assumptions and not to leave stuff to chance.

Just drop the rope. Stop doing things. There was a great thread on Twitter with a woman who literally stopped cleaning the kitchen. It took about 2 days and eventually her DH realised and attacked the dishwasher, washed up etc.
Basically stop doing something like laundry. When DH asks where are the clean clothes just shrug. It won't matter for the kids, they don't get too stinky. He'll notice though.
Then once he's picked up laundry capabilities move to the next chore and stop that !

I don't disagree with anything you've said in terms of outcomes - I want exactly the same for women and have had those conversations with my own daughters.

But the emphasis always seems to be on women making poor choices in a life partner, women not being assertive enough in their relationship, not maintaining a career after kids or remaining financially independent and none of these things happen in a vacuum. The more privileged your social and economic position the more likely you are to be able to influence your environment, including the men in it, but they'll be a whole demographic of women and girls (maybe not typical mumsnet users) where making 'good' life choices will be much more difficult and on a predominantly female site it's important they don't feel blamed for what is at root a male socialisation/ entitlement problem.

This type of thread pops up quite frequently.

There was one a while back in which some posters admitted that, in the early days of their relationship, they'd taken on the majority of household responsibilities because they'd wanted to show their partner they'd make a good wife or to look after them, to make their partner's life easier.

Some women admitted 'when children came along, they had 'just assumed' their partners would 'just step up' and play an equal part. And were upset, frustrated and exhausted because they didn't.

It was interesting because I've only ever seen that on that one thread but I have often wondered if that were the case.

Similarly, with threads where women complain that it is their responsibility to buy presents for their partner's family. Some women say it was something that they had started doing during maternity leave because they were going to the shops anyway and they didn't mind but then it became something that stuck when they returned to work and once a second child had come along, it became harder to keep up and resentment set in.

Then there are threads where women complain that their partner wants to take the baby to his mum's for the day and half the posters replying will say he's unreasonable to expect her to want to spend any time at all away from the baby or where women won't allow their partner to do any childcare because he doesn't do things the way she wants them done or they won't go to a hen do because it feels frivolous to do something for themselves when they have a baby at home and their husband has never put the baby to bed before and doesn't know what to do. Some women who boast about giving up their hobbies when a child was born because their child is the most important thing in the world and they can't bear to be apart.

The same goes for housework.

It's labelled as 'weaponised incompetence'. Sometimes it is but sometimes it's just the status quo that has been established.

I've known a few women (mostly of my mum's generation - she's in her early 70s now) who would say to each other, "Honestly, he's useless! No idea how to use the washing machine!" and it was always said with a smile and a sense of 'Bless him! He'd be lost without me!" Or where they've declined invitations out to dinner on the basis that, "I can't. I need to do his dinner. He'd live off beans on toast if i werent there to cook for him!" So what? Beans on toast for a night won't kill him!

I've never really heen able to articulate why this is. But i have seen many, many women who are complicit in creating the situation irl.

And then the man is criticised for not being involved or taking on an equal share.

But it's everywhere. Threads where women are in the very early stages of dating and they're 'seeing each other' and having sex but it's not an exlcusive relationship because he doesnt know what he wants and a pervasive idea that men don't know their own minds; don't know what they want; don't know what's good for them. He does know what he wants. And he doesnt want a relationship with you but he also doesn't want to tell you that and cut off guarantreed sex.

There are threads where women talk about what they are looking for in a man and high earner and good looking often crop up. Or where they have complaints about his behaviour and attitude towards them but earns well and good looking crop up in the pro list. Yes, wanting someone solvent, with a good work ethic and probably.a similar earning potential to yourself is understandable and finding someone you find attractive is important but high earner and good looking will only take someomenso far inna relationship. They are not qualities that will make someone a good partner or father alone.

Women aren't responsible for men's choices or behaviours but we are responsible for deciding what we will accept in a relationship; for what we prioritise in a partner. Those men will still exist but we don't need to marry them or have children with them.

My advice to my daughter has been to start as you mean to go on. Set the precedent you want.

Don't accept something in the early days that doesn't work for you.

Yes, misogyny is rife and we live in a patriarchal society. We all know that. But, on an individual level, we still have choices. Choices around who we choose to share our life with, choice around who we create children with, choice on what we will accept.

I'm not an anomaly in having a partner who takes on a truly equal share of everything. Other women do too. I married one and, when dating between him and my partner, I didn't have a relationship with anyone who wasn't a fully functional, independent adult (and I've never had to give anyone a list!) And these were all men in their 50s I dated over the past 10 years.

There are plenty of willing and capable men out there but as long as women keep telling each other that most aren't and 'all men are like that', women will keep finding themselves with someone 'like that'

I don't understand how this passive aggressive dirty protest approach is easier than a quick sentence "You need to pick up more chores to balance how much I do, please do all household laundry in future."

If women feel they've failed by picking a lazy man, then that's a shame. It's still factual that they need to demand better from him, not wail ineffectually on forums while still doing everything at home.

In my experience-and I speak as someone who did more of the parenting because I was a SAHM but whose partner actually tried very hard to do as much as he could-both men and women often lie or are in denial about the division of labour. I don’t think I have ever seen a true 50:50 split, honestly. There’s the classic woman does all the cooking and cleaning/man changes the oil in the car, puts the bins out, mows the lawn and puts up shelves (man, some houses seem to have a lot of shelves!) to the more subtle 50:50 but there are always lists or he can’t cook so….That’s why I asked about birthday presents. Men will often happily take kids to parties and even remember to take the present and card-less often buy and wrap said present and card unprompted. And I have never actually come across a non solo father who routinely nit combs!